British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Berkut]

Keep in mind that to a Parisian, it can come off as very rude not to say "bonjour monsieur/madame" and s'il vous plait (please).  Even if you know no French, just memorizing two two phrases can get you a long ways.  My spoken French is terrible, but I always sprinkle in my bonjours, s'il vous plaits, and the polite conditional form (je voudrais).  They may laugh behind my back about my poor grammar and outlandish accent without me knowing about it, but I have had little problems with direct rudeness or poor service.

I think it is almost all perception.

If I go traveling in Europe, and get some belgian waiter who is a rude ass, I will think "Damn, that guy is a rude ass!" but if I am in France when that happens I think "Ha! Typical French!" because that little nugget of bias is already planted in my mind that the French are rude.

Actual objective evidence of their spaztickness though, like the aforementioned laws requiring that French be "predominant" make me think there is something real behind the perception though. I think I will pass on Montreal. Besides, it apparently is just like upstate New York!

Which makes me wonder why *anyone* would visit it...

[Berkut]

But JR is right.  My impression is that the French (and British) don't have the sort of service culture that exists in the US - and don't like it. 

you know, I've been to London twice, and while there are certainly some differences (the way everyone on the tube works so hard to pretend not to notice everyone else or *gasp!* make eye contact is really funny...), the service thing I just did not see.

I ate out every day, of course, and I thought the service was excellent. Polite, reasonable attentive without being noisy, and sometimes downright friendly, especially if I was willing to make the first move and open up a conversation.

[Sheilbh]

Montreal is one of the few cities in North America I really want to visit.

They are San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Montreal and Vancouver

[Berkut]

Montreal is one of the few cities in North America I really want to visit.

Yeah, but you want to visit it BECAUSE they are French!

[Valmy]

They are San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Montreal and Vancouver

Wow you would rather visit Philly and Boston over New York?  I guess you have already been there.

Nobody ever says 'Oh wow I cannot wait to visit Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio' for some reason

[Oexmelin]

What's a problem is that the signs which the company may have on hand for places like France will not do in Quebec, because typically they will be bilingual and so French does not "predominate" to the degree required by Quebec sensitivities.

?

Let me reiterate: the law is applicable over outward commercial signs. There is even a provision for those who want to retain international branding. Burger King is still Burger King and not Le Roi du Burger. Nothing prevented KFC to remain KFC but they still decided to change for PFK.

Open up any sort of product: the instruction booklet doesn't have to have «predominant French». It simply needs to have a French manual. Likewise for packaging.

My anecdotal proof of the sillyness of it all, and the political nature of the opposition to Quebec's language laws, is the fact that bilingualism in commercial packaging suddenly became better as a result of NAFTA. Apparently, the Americans didn't think it was either silly nor such an overwhelming cost to their business to print the packages in three languages and to include a French booklet, usually much better translated than it used to. Likewise, any sort of strict application of the law decreased markedly from that time on.

All of these issues over enormous costs and what not seems a red herring. Large multinationals won't care about packaging; small business usually do not have lots of packaging to do and, by experience, Vermonters are strangely enough more than capable of finding / paying someone to translate their stuff once and for all. Outward commercial signs is a ridiculously tiny issue.

Much more compelling are the costs associated with operating in an environment which is culturally different, and which uses a different language in the workplace. But culturally authorizing a return to the situation pre-1950 where businesses operated in English even with Francophone workers is national suicide and of course, politically untenable. Here again, there are things were costs are simply irrelevant.

[HVC]

Montreal is one of the few cities in North America I really want to visit.

Yeah, but you want to visit it BECAUSE they are French!

Yeah, but they're not like the French French. i don't think they even like the French French. If it was up to quebecers during WWII France would now be speaking a strange german dialect.

[Ed Anger]

Best story I have of Paris is I was in a cafe with my friend (and having a native with you helps a lot) and the tourists was getting antsy with the slow service. My friend notices I'm getting antsy myself, she tells me to be patient, that is the way it is.

So, I sat patiently, I got my drink fairly quickly and got a nice smile from the cute waitress while the tourists blew a gasket and the waitstaff ignoring them as much as possible.

Drinks and a show.

[Valmy]

Yeah, but they're not like the French Frecnh. i don't think they even like the French French. If it was up to quebecers during WWII FRance would not be speaking a strange german dialect.

It does seem that Quebec just does not feel the affection, to the extent that we feel it, for France that we anglo-speakers do for Britain.

[Sheilbh]

you know, I've been to London twice, and while there are certainly some differences (the way everyone on the tube works so hard to pretend not to notice everyone else or *gasp!* make eye contact is really funny...), the service thing I just did not see.

The Tube thing is brilliant.  I do it, of course, but I sometimes stop and think 'it's ridiculous me pretending there's no-one else here, my face is in a stranger's armpit'

I ate out every day, of course, and I thought the service was excellent. Polite, reasonable attentive without being noisy, and sometimes downright friendly, especially if I was willing to make the first move and open up a conversation.

Yeah.  I always think British service is better than we think it is or than our reputation suggests.  Though I suspect this is largely because we've stopped employing British people as waiters.

The Brit complaint about the US is generally that service is too attentive.  I found this to some extent in one place I went to in New York, but I think that's because it wasn't somewhere tourists went very often so the waiter was, I think, just curious.

[HVC]

Yeah, but they're not like the French Frecnh. i don't think they even like the French French. If it was up to quebecers during WWII FRance would not be speaking a strange german dialect.

It does seem that Quebec just does not feel the affection, to the extent that we feel it, for France that we anglo-speakers do for Britain.

I'm not sure about america's ties with the mother land, but most other anglo nations had very close ties with Britain until very recently, something which Quebec didn't have.

[Valmy]

The Brit complaint about the US is generally that service is too attentive.  I found this to some extent in one place I went to in New York, but I think that's because it wasn't somewhere tourists went very often so the waiter was, I think, just curious.

I do have to say it is rather annoying that it seems everytime you are in the middle of a real important or emotional conversation the waiter just bursts interrupting saying 'is everything ok?'.  Of course when you do actually need them for something it seems they are never around

[Valmy]

I'm not sure about america's ties with the mother land, but most other anglo nations had very close ties with Britain until very recently, something which Quebec didn't have.

Well Anglophilia was one of the big forces that got us involved in both World Wars (at least as far as we helped the allies out before Germany and Japan did the stupid things they did).  It would have been very hard for us to sit by while Britain was conquered by Germany but Germany never actually did that.  Quebec, on the other hand, seems to have not cared in the slightest that France was actually being invaded and conquered by Germany.

I guess the lack of political ties is the main one.  Plus at least we Americans traded extensively with Britain continually after we became independent.

[Oexmelin]

A dangerous assumption.  Even very small businesses can get significant benefits from being able to interact with the broader market outside their immediate current clients and suppliers.  Of course English strictly isn't necessary to do this, but can be very helpful especially for a business located in North America.

No one is arguing that learning English is unimportant or an interesting advantage. It is just the scenario of apocalyptic economic doom if the level of bilingualism isn't 100% in all regions of Quebec seem grossly overstated. As are the lessons over cultural isolationism, especially since, in this day and age, American shows are subtitled, there exist good press agencies in French, we have access to Francophone media, including news from Africa or Asia, etc. The fact that many Americans speak English doesn't seem to be a foolproof antidote to cultural isolationism.

[Berkut]

The Brit complaint about the US is generally that service is too attentive.  I found this to some extent in one place I went to in New York, but I think that's because it wasn't somewhere tourists went very often so the waiter was, I think, just curious.

I do have to say it is rather annoying that it seems everytime you are in the middle of a real important or emotional conversation the waiter just bursts interrupting saying 'is everything ok?'.  Of course when you do actually need them for something it seems they are never around

As someone who has spent some time serving tables, I never understood that.

I mean, it is usually rather obvious if someone wants something - they will be looking around and such. Otherwise, just making yourself visible and available is perfectly adequate. I generally refused to follow managements "rules" about how often you were supposed to go back and check on a table. One check a few minutes after meals are served, and otherwise just be around if needed while you deal with other tables.

If you notice a drink is empty (coffee, soda, whatever) just refill it. You don't have to bug them about it - just do it.