British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Valmy]

But if you are living in a community where no one speaks English, all your media is in French and you have no wish to travel or do business outside your area why learn to speak English?

Because most of your own country plus the huge one just south of you speak it?  I mean I guess it is true that if having your business and employment and cultural opportunities limited to just your own tiny community is your thing then that is fine.

It would be like living in the Basque country of Spain and only learning Basque.

[Berkut]

There is a chicken and egg issue here - the fact that the entire province is so nationalistic and nasty to non-French is certainly going to make it rather difficult to compete and get that uber developed economy, isn't it?

But hey, they will have their "culture", so there you go...

I would characterize it a bit differently.  I dont think there is a particular nastiness about it.  As I posted above, all my experiences in the Province have been very positive.  But you make a very good point about the economic isolation they create.  As I said in my response to V, there is no need to speak English so long as they stay local but growing an economy on that basis is problematic at best.

I read the OP, and it clearly said they were rather nasty, so it must be true.

Even if it is not true (and honestly, I have no idea) there is certainly the perception that it is true. For example, I would never visit Quebec because of that perception - if I was visiting Canada, there are lots of places that seem just as nice where I won't have to run the risk of dealing with some spaz who is going to act like an ass because I don't speak French.

Of course, the Francophones will just say "Well fuck you! We did not want you to come and visit us anyway!" in some outrageous French accent. Win-win. I don't visit, and they get to feel superior, but poor.

[Malthus]

It would cause an uproar, but I think it'd be right.  I mean their could be some exceptions I could see, for example some sort of Acadian community - and vice versa in Quebec.  But I think that should be the exception not the rule for other communities.

they did try it.  At some point, they merged the english schoold board with the french ones to drown them.
They tried again with the only French hospital in Ontario. No uproar from the english community.
Manitoba did it successfully for about a century.
There was no uproar from the english community.
A former Quebec citizen with past ties to the PQ was nominated as director of an Ottawa hospital (and english one).
Now, there was an uproar.

Ontario can be a nice province and it has lots of nice people, but it's in no way that bastion of light & tolerance towards other culture that Malthus wants to portray.  Traditionnaly, French citizens of all provinces had had to fight a lot to get services in their own languages.  And then once they are nearly assimilated, our anglo friends used the "sufficient number" excuse to stop funding public services.

I'm not arguing that Ontario is a bastion of sweetness and light. Indeed, it was, in the past, a hotbed of ethno-nationalist xenophobia - mostly directed against Catholics, whether French or not. The Orange Order of Protestants used to be the most powerful political "machine" in the province - indeed, a town near Toronto is *called* "Orangeville".

However, that was then and this is now.

Their power has been utterly broken. We have had our fights over xenophobia, and xenophobia mostly lost. Not that there is no xenophobia here, but it isn't focused in any one particular direction, anymore.

Contrast with Quebec.

[Oexmelin]

Imposing a whole level of added costs and niggling petty bureaucracy on doing business - such as having the police carefully measure your signs to ensure that the font on the french version was larger than the font on the English version (a requirement under Quebec law)

Do you have any report that this was actually done ? In your trips to Montréal, did you notice that policy enforced ? Had you had the chance to visit Montréal before the language laws ?

[Valmy]

Man I have always wanted to visit Montreal and Quebec.  It would be like visiting France except everybody speaks French funny and it is really cold.

[Berkut]

Is that really a law, or is Malthus exaggerating for effect?

That can't really be a law, can it? Seriously? In today's world?

[Malthus]

Imposing a whole level of added costs and niggling petty bureaucracy on doing business - such as having the police carefully measure your signs to ensure that the font on the french version was larger than the font on the English version (a requirement under Quebec law)

This cannot *possibly* be true!

Sadly, it is.

http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/english/regulations/reg_predominant.html

1. In signs and posters of the civil administration, public signs and posters and posted commercial advertising that are both in French and in another language, French is markedly predominant where the text in French has a much greater visual impact than the text in the other language.

2. Where texts both in French and in another language appear on the same sign or poster. the text in French is deemed to have a much greater visual impact if the following conditions are met :

(1) the space allotted to the text in French is at least twice as large as the space allotted to the text in the other language:
(2) the characters used in the text in French are at least twice as large as those used in the text in the other language; and
(3) the other characteristics of the sign or poster do not have the effect of reducing the visual impact of the text in French.

3. Where texts both in French and in another language appear on separate signs or posters of the same size, the text in French is deemed to have a much greater visual impact if the following conditions are met :

(1) the signs and posters bearing the text in French are at least twice as numerous as those bearing the text in the other language :
(2) the characters used in the text in French are at least as large as those used in the text in the other language; and
(3) the other characteristics of the signs or posters do not have the effect of reducing the visual impact of the text in French.

4. Where texts both in French and in another language appear on separate signs or posters of a different size, the text in French is deemed to have a much greater visual impact if the following conditions are met :

(1) the signs and posters bearing the text in French are at least as numerous as those bearing the text in the other language;
(2) the signs or posters bearing the text in French are at least twice as large as those bearing the text in the other language;
(3) the characters used in the text in French are at least twice as large as those used in the text in the other language; and
(4) the other characteristics of the signs or posters do not have the effect of reducing the visual impact of the text in French.

5. This Regulation replaces the Regulation facilitating the implementation of the second paragraph of Section 58.1 of the Charter of the French language made by Order in Council 1130-89 dated 12 July 1989.

6. This Regulation comes into force on the date of its publication in the Gazette officielle du Québec.

This regulation has been published on


22 December 1993.

[Valmy]

Is that really a law, or is Malthus exaggerating for effect?

That can't really be a law, can it? Seriously? In today's world?

I assure you it is.  Bizarre as it may be.

[Berkut]

:boggle:

[Berkut]

So it would be illegal then for me to post an ad in strictly English, for example? A completely private advertisement?

[Malthus]

So it would be illegal then for me to post an ad in strictly English, for example? A completely private advertisement?

Absolutely.

Moreover, it would be illegal to post a bilingual ad in which the French was the same size as the English.

French must "predominate".

[HVC]

Man I have always wanted to visit Montreal and Quebec.  It would be like visiting France except everybody speaks French funny and it is really cold.

Montreal is nice, and so is quebec city. If you speak passable french (or at least attempt too ) youèll have a great time. Even if yu speak no french you'll have a great time in most areas of those two cities.

As an aside, the french we're taught in ontarion is european french, it's not too useful in quebec

[crazy canuck]

I read the OP, and it clearly said they were rather nasty, so it must be true.

Even if it is not true (and honestly, I have no idea) there is certainly the perception that it is true. For example, I would never visit Quebec because of that perception - if I was visiting Canada, there are lots of places that seem just as nice where I won't have to run the risk of dealing with some spaz who is going to act like an ass because I don't speak French.

Of course, the Francophones will just say "Well fuck you! We did not want you to come and visit us anyway!" in some outrageous French accent. Win-win. I don't visit, and they get to feel superior, but poor.

Since the OP is exaggerated for rhetorical effect I dont put any faith in the truthfulness of the report.  I am disagreeing with the characterization because of my actual experience dealing with people in Quebec.

You are probably right about the image problem though since only someone who has actual experience can say that the story about nastiness is overblown.

[Oexmelin]

I would characterize it a bit differently.  I dont think there is a particular nastiness about it.  As I posted above, all my experiences in the Province have been very positive.  But you make a very good point about the economic isolation they create.  As I said in my response to V, there is no need to speak English so long as they stay local but growing an economy on that basis is problematic at best.

Indeed. Fortunately, «growing an economy» requires both Mom & Pop's where the need to learn English is nil and multinationals (Rio-Tinto-Alcan ; Cirque du Soleil ; Power Corporation) where the need is enormous.

Apart from that, lessons on bilingualism from people who admit being unilingual is interesting.

[Valmy]

Montreal is nice, and so is quebec city. If you speak passable french (or at least attempt too ) youèll have a great time. Even if yu speak no french you'll have a great time in most areas of those two cities.

As an aside, the french we're taught in ontarion is european french, it's not too useful in quebec

Why?  Wouldn't the teachers be from Quebec?  But I guess if Quebec English teachers do not even have it as their first language either...

Anyway Quebec French sounds really funny when you are used to hearing Euro French.