12-year-old could face life in prison for slaying

[Zanza]

Are there a lot of 13 year old drug salesmen in Germany?

Never heard of that. My totally prejudiced guess is that drug salesmen are usually young males, often with some kind of migrant background.

I have also never heard of a child (i.e. <14 year old) having commited killing in Germany except in accidents. Youth crime is also declining in recent years here.

[Barrister]

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

Yeah, but it's not developing out of thin air, that brain development is based on what's already there.  What's already there was OK with robbing someone at gunpoint and shooting them.

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

[Admiral Yi]

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

Did Dr. Worling drive to the Crown School in his Crownmobile?

[jimmy olsen]

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

Did Dr. Worling drive to the Crown School in his Crownmobile?

Why yes, yes he did.

[Ed Anger]

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

Did Dr. Worling drive to the Crown School in his Crownmobile?

Sponsored by Royal Crown Cola.

[Savonarola]

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

Did Dr. Worling drive to the Crown School in his Crownmobile?

You can fit fifteen attorneys into it.

It would be even better if the school was called Crown College.

[Admiral Yi]

Sponsored by Royal Crown Cola.

Recently learned there's a RC bottler in the West Bank.

[Barrister]

So in order to receive an adult sentence the prosecutor must first ask for it, then the judge can choose to impose it.  There's nothing mandatory about it, from either the prosecution or the judge.

Yes. That's what I meant with discretion. I would make it mandatory that juvenile jurisdiction must be used.

I think it is silly to not allow the possibility of an adult sentence depending on the circumstances of a case.

I think it should not be allowed, no matter the circumstances.

Well it's an opinion, so I can't (unlike DGuller) say that you're conclusively wrong.

But I really disagree.  The division between youth and adult crimes is very arbitrary.  It has to be in order to give some certainty to the law, but it can lead to strange results.  I just saw a youth that was charged with a youth crime one week shy of their 18th birthday and get treated as a youth, then get charged one week later and is now an adult, and treated very differently.  Nothing has changed about the youth in the meantime.

But because it's arbitrary there are occasions when it leads to absurd results.  An 18 year old convicted or murder in Canada gets life - automatically.  A 17 year old, sentenced as a youth, would get a maximum of 3 years (and only 2 of that would be in an actual jail).  That's an enormous difference in sentences for a very minor difference in offenders.

That's why I support, in certain circumstances, the possibility of sentencing a youth as an adult.

By the way in Canada it would be very difficult to get an adult sentence on someone between 12 and 14 years, but somewhat easier on someone who is between 14 and 18.

[Barrister]

Based on my understanding or a lecture session from Dr. James Worling in July at the Ontario Crown Attorney's Crown School on adolescent offenders (primarily, but not exclusively, focused on adolescent sexual offenders) that is simply not true.

Did Dr. Worling drive to the Crown School in his Crownmobile?

I just so happens that our office vehicle (a beat up Grand Cherokee) is nicknamed the Crownmobile.   

[Zanza]

Are there a lot of 13 year old drug salesmen in Germany?

I looked it up. In 2007 the police in Germany reported 528 narcotics law related cases by children (<14 y.o.), in 2006 they reported 678 cases.

The top crime among <14 y.o. was shop lifting, followed by damaging property and (light) battery. Not particularly surprising I guess.

Apparently there were four cases of attempted or completed murders (they don't distinguish between those) by children and seven or eight (it's given in percentages) attempted or completed other homicides (manslaughter, killing on demand etc.) by children in 2007. Never heard about such a case, so I don't know any details.

[Eddie Teach]

What is "killing on demand?"

[Zanza]

But because it's arbitrary there are occasions when it leads to absurd results.  An 18 year old convicted or murder in Canada gets life - automatically.  A 17 year old, sentenced as a youth, would get a maximum of 3 years (and only 2 of that would be in an actual jail).  That's an enormous difference in sentences for a very minor difference in offenders.

In general I always rather err on the side of leniency. Especially with youth. We don't deem them able to make decisions, so I am fine with not deeming them able to comprehend the full severity of a crime either.

But as I brought up the German juvenile law as a comparison: once you are 14, you can be sentenced for up to 10 years in prison. And on top of that, there is something called "preventive detention", which can be imposed on those deemed a threat to society because of their grave crimes (almost only for violent crimes). Preventive detention can last until you are no longer deemed a threat. A judge reviews that every two years, but theoretically you can be locked up until you die. So a 14 year old mass murderer in Germany could get life, even if it is not called that. But a 13 year and 364 days old mass murderer would not be charged with a crime.

[Zanza]

What is "killing on demand?"

Section 216
Killing at the request of the victim; mercy killing
(1) If a person is induced to kill by the express and earnest request of the victim the penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to five years.
(2) The attempt shall be punishable.

[Barrister]

In general I always rather err on the side of leniency. Especially with youth. We don't deem them able to make decisions, so I am fine with not deeming them able to comprehend the full severity of a crime either.

Err... we do deem them able to make decisions, which is why we sentence them.  We find them not as responsible as adults though, which is why we give them lighter sentences.

[DGuller]

I guess I'm just prejudiced by my own childhood experience.  I did many things back then that I now consider to be highly unethical and beneath myself of even considering.  However, acting out on such extreme violence never even entered my mind.  I personally can't imagine someone breaking down that mental barrier in their youth, and then somehow being able to re-establish it later on in life, but I guess I'm not an expert.