12-year-old could face life in prison for slaying

[Ed Anger]

Give me a fucking break. What a lame joke then. You guys make it sound like he married a girl of only 19.

MB you are what..35ish?

When I get married, I know damn for sure I'm going to nab me a nice, younger girl barely of legal age to ensure my youth remains solidified forever.

He married her like 3 years ago, so he was 34 and she was 24.

the 1/2 + 7 rule is bullshit.

34/2 +7 = 24.

It is still bullshit.

[Neil]

Give me a fucking break. What a lame joke then. You guys make it sound like he married a girl of only 19.

MB you are what..35ish?

When I get married, I know damn for sure I'm going to nab me a nice, younger girl barely of legal age to ensure my youth remains solidified forever.

He married her like 3 years ago, so he was 34 and she was 24.

the 1/2 + 7 rule is bullshit.

Indeed.

[PDH]

The older I get, and therefore the more I look like Sean Connery in his mannish prime, the more the 1/2+7 rule looks like rubbish to me too.

[Barrister]

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but at our middle school we've had two students that I would classify as absolute sociopaths. In fact, they're diagnosed as having dissocial personality disorder. One of them, at the age of 11, actually scared several staff members by his complete lack of ability to empathize or otherwise recognize how his actions affected others.

Both kids are now in psych hospitals. According to their profiles, their psyches believe that their horrible upbringing - involving extreme neglect, severe physical abuse, and drug use - was the cause of their sociopathic tendencies.

There's no reason to believe that these two kids are unique. Many of our kids aren't far off this mark, though never diagnosed.

I have two thoughts:

1. I'm not certain about how well you can diagnose young people (especially that young) wit major personality disorders like that.  I know many diagnostic tools have particular warnings that they are not to be used on adolescents.

2. To the extent that a youth can be diagnosed with a significant personality disorder, yes they may well have a very elevated chance of re-offending.  High, but not 100%  HOWEVER most young people that commit crimes, even very violent crimes, do not have a diagnosable illness.  That was one of the major points the forensic psychiatrist I referenced earlier made.


I'm not saying that some adolescents can't be vary dangerous.  What I am saying is you can't make that assessment based simply on what the crime was.

[HVC]

What about giving them a conditional adult sentence? If there's such a thing. if their crime is so henious as to deserve an adult sentence then they serve the maximum child sentence, and after that the get a psych eval, and another one every two or so years until either they're cleared or the fulfill they full sentence (ie the sentence they would have gotten as an adult). If they pass their first eval then there record gets cleared like any other child offender. that way both sides when. the one that think kids can change, and the ones that think truely fucked kids become truly fucked up adults

[Martinus]

If at 12 he's shooting someone to death in a robbery he's past the point of no return. Keep him locked up. OR give him the french treatment and cut off his pointer fingers so he can't shoot a gun again.

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

That being said I am also opposed to the idea of automatically excluding the possibility of parole for someone for their entire life.  What is the purpose of that?  It also helps to manage inmates to give them some kind of hope, some kind of goal to work towards (even if it is 25 years out).  If an inmate has zero hope they are going to become the absolute worst kind of prisoner, and human being, imaginable.

[Martinus]

By the way, in Euroweenie-Germany, you can only be tried for a crime starting at age 14. A twelve year old killing someone here would probably just get a lot of counciling from family services and psychiatrists.

Same, only the age here is 15 (and that only for the worst crimes; the standard age is 17). Below that age you can be sent to a juvenile perp institution but you are released upon adulthood.

[Martinus]

Anyway, the purpose of the prison system is to (i) serve justice, and (ii) offer the perp some attempt at resocialization. It's not to "lock him away" because he is a threat - that's what psychiatric wards are for.

When you are dealing with kids, the stress should always be on resocialization first, and justice second, because, well, because we are humanists, and not damn barbaric apes.

[Martinus]

If at 12 he's shooting someone to death in a robbery he's past the point of no return. Keep him locked up. OR give him the french treatment and cut off his pointer fingers so he can't shoot a gun again.

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

I'd agree with you for things like theft and vandalism, but murder? If a 12 year old sees nothing wrong with killing someone while robbing them i don't believe he'll get better once he becomes an adult.

The point is not to just let them go and hope they get better, but to engage in education and resocialisation of the kid, because at that age he can still get better, provided he is subjected to proper counseling and supervision.

When a 12 y.o. kid commits a crime, then the society (aka "we") have clearly failed the kid in one way or another, and it is both immoral and counterproductive to just lock him away for life.

To be honest, I am appalled by the blind knee-jerk idiocy from you and other people in this thread. The old quote by Churchill about a 5-minute chat with an average voter being the best argument against democracy has never been more true.

[Martinus]

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but at our middle school we've had two students that I would classify as absolute sociopaths. In fact, they're diagnosed as having dissocial personality disorder. One of them, at the age of 11, actually scared several staff members by his complete lack of ability to empathize or otherwise recognize how his actions affected others.

Both kids are now in psych hospitals. According to their profiles, their psyches believe that their horrible upbringing - involving extreme neglect, severe physical abuse, and drug use - was the cause of their sociopathic tendencies.

There's no reason to believe that these two kids are unique. Many of our kids aren't far off this mark, though never diagnosed.

What about your criminal kid? Is he a sociopath too or is his criminal behaviour just a result of you failing as a parent?

[Valmy]

It's not to "lock him away" because he is a threat - that's what psychiatric wards are for.

Psychiatric wards can not do that in the US unfortunately.  The insane have the civil right to leave if they want.  As a result we usually have to wait for the dangerously insane to actually commit a crime to remove them from society.  So it is the only legal way to "lock him away" because he is a threat.  Only a court order can keep anybody anywhere against their will.

Hurrah for civil rights!

[Valmy]

What about your criminal kid? Is he a sociopath too or is his criminal behaviour just a result of you failing as a parent?

I suppose you know all about kids since you spend so much time with them.

[jimmy olsen]

To say that someone at the age of TWELVE is beyond the point of no return is absolute foolishness.  It is not based on any kind of experience or evidence.   The Brain is just barely beginning puberty at that point, and has an enormous amount of developing and maturing to do.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but at our middle school we've had two students that I would classify as absolute sociopaths. In fact, they're diagnosed as having dissocial personality disorder. One of them, at the age of 11, actually scared several staff members by his complete lack of ability to empathize or otherwise recognize how his actions affected others.

Both kids are now in psych hospitals. According to their profiles, their psyches believe that their horrible upbringing - involving extreme neglect, severe physical abuse, and drug use - was the cause of their sociopathic tendencies.

There's no reason to believe that these two kids are unique. Many of our kids aren't far off this mark, though never diagnosed.

What about your criminal kid? Is he a sociopath too or is his criminal behaviour just a result of you failing as a parent?

That was totally uncalled for.

[DGuller]

What about your criminal kid? Is he a sociopath too or is his criminal behaviour just a result of you failing as a parent?

WTF?

[jimmy olsen]

Also, isn't that a backroom violation Marty?