Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Valmy]

Out of interest would you object state funded leisure centres supporting single-sex teams for non-contact sports like football/soccer.  What's the difference in your mind?

Well that is a question of competitive fairness.

But hey I play on a coed team so you got nothing on me.  And it is totally fair in my case since I suck and tons of women are better than me.

I am seriously going to have to justify every single instance of this so you can prove...I don't know...that I should support segregating other things that are not presently segregated?

[Sheilbh]

I am seriously going to have to justify every single instance of this so you can prove...I don't know...that I should support segregating other things that are not presently segregated?

No.  I've got to problems with your view that I don't understand.  Because you don't seem to buy into the Marty/Ivan/Grallon 'REPUBLIQUE EN DANGER!' view.  So I can't get where you're coming from.

Why is swimming different?  Your problem seems to be with swimming and, so far as I can tell, this is because you're basically conservative on this. Because it's generally been mixed you don't think it should now be segregated at any time, even for an hour or two a week.  That's why I ask about sport, something that's generally been segregated and about things like leisure centres and saunas which have always allowed for segregation.  Because if you've problems with them on the public purse then it's not a conservative view then your opinion's presumably that things shouldn't be segregated at all.  In which case I think Jacob's question is relevant: is there a limit?  I think you've suggest toilets could be it.

The other thing is that because I don't think you're one of the last best hopes for western values, whether the issue is gender segregation.  Do you have an issue with time set aside for the elderly, or de facto women only groups like 'mother and children' swimming times?

[Valmy]

No.  I've got to problems with your view that I don't understand.  Because you don't seem to buy into the Marty/Ivan/Grallon 'REPUBLIQUE EN DANGER!' view.  So I can't get where you're coming from.

Why is swimming different?  Your problem seems to be with swimming and, so far as I can tell, this is because you're basically conservative on this. Because it's generally been mixed you don't think it should now be segregated at any time, even for an hour or two a week.  That's why I ask about sport, something that's generally been segregated and about things like leisure centres and saunas which have always allowed for segregation.  Because if you've problems with them on the public purse then it's not a conservative view then your opinion's presumably that things shouldn't be segregated at all.  In which case I think Jacob's question is relevant: is there a limit?  I think you've suggest toilets could be it.

Ok why should swimming be segregated?  I just don't get the point beyond some bullshit about how having men around is oh so horrible.  Why should I support it?  The only thing I can see is some irrational fear of an entire gender or some middle eastern cultural value.  I think I need more than that.  I need a reason to do something and to me it just seems regressive.

or de facto women only groups like 'mother and children' swimming times?

Ok why force the fathers to stay out?  Too dangerous?

As for the elderly thing...well I doubt that would ever happen.  The elderly would probably like to bring their grandkids and families and such along.

[Sheilbh]

Ok why should swimming be segregated?  I just don't get the point beyond some bullshit about how having men around is oh so horrible.  Why should I support it?  The only thing I can see is some irrational fear of an entire gender or some middle eastern cultural value.  I think I need more than that.

It shouldn't be segregated.  But if a group of women want to be able to swim without men in the pool they should be able to.  Whether the reason is religion or insecurity or just that they feel more comfortable with the 'girls', when they're wearing a bikini seems irrelevant to me. 

I really don't think fear's really a part of it.

Ok why force the fathers to stay out?  Too dangerous?

No.  Because women, even (especially?) mothers, don't necessarily always want male company at all times.  Sometimes they just want to spend time without them and when they've got a young kid it's good to go to something like that like because the kids will be catered for.

Edit:  Also there are family times.  But if the dad's there then it is a bunch of families in the pool.  If the dad's aren't there (or rather the couples aren't there) then it's more likely to be a social thing without the self-contained family.

As for the elderly thing...well I doubt that would ever happen.  The elderly would probably like to bring their grandkids and families and such along.

The elderly thing does happen in swimming pools I've been to in the UK.  OAP only, just like the kids only time.  It's a social thing  I think as much as anything.  Not all elderly people really have a family or grandkids.  Swimming helps them keep active and get out of the house and see people.  I think it's a really good thing actually.  With the elderly the other thing is that they probably want to avoid pools at normal times (without their family) because a lot of them worry about teenagers bombing off the diving board, or people running around.

[garbon]

It shouldn't be segregated.  But if a group of women want to be able to swim without men in the pool they should be able to.  Whether the reason is religion or insecurity or just that they feel more comfortable with the 'girls', when they're wearing a bikini seems irrelevant to me. 

I really don't think fear's really a part of it.

Then they should get their own pool / start their own pool club.

[Sheilbh]

Then they should get their own pool / start their own pool club.

But most pools in this country that aren't terribly expensive are in the town's leisure centre run by the local authority.  They exist to serve their community.  When there's a demand in the community for single sex swimming then they'll arrange it for x number of hours a week. 

[Zoupa]

Then they should get their own pool / start their own pool club.

But most pools in this country that aren't terribly expensive are in the town's leisure centre run by the local authority.  They exist to serve their community.  When there's a demand in the community for single sex swimming then they'll arrange it for x number of hours a week.

Demands from the community is not sufficient reason.

[Ideologue]

Also, for what it's worth, I could see benefit in gender segregated swimming, particularly for women who are either embarassed by their looks or annoyed by people like me ogling them.

Sure that is what private pools are for.  Anyway maybe these women should grow up, be adults, and get over it?  I don't really  like the idea my ability to swim at a public pool has to be restricted to accomadate insecure people or some sort of foreign cultural value.

Yeah, I don't see exactly what's stopping mosques from building their own swimming pools and enforcing their own rules.  The YMCA has thousands of pools, and are perfectly capable of telling people what they can and cannot wear inside them.

Still, until someone tells me why burkinis should not be allowed at the discretion of the woman bather--and I mean a why that does not rely on political ideology, but demonstrates that as a practical matter they are unsafe or unhygienic--I can't really support a decision that deprives human beings of their ability to choose what they can and cannot wear.

[Sheilbh]

I've just found and read an article on this and I've no problem with it.  It's nothing to do with Islam (maybe tangenitally) and more to do with horrifying French pool rules:

The police refused to accept the complaint on the grounds that the lifeguard was just enforcing the rules that apply in all French public pools. Women must wear swimsuits and men must wear brief trunks -- Speedos -- rather than shorts, which are said to be more likely to harbour bacteria.

In which case I think the real issue is enforced segregation of ugly and non-ugly swimmers.

Edit: I remember a friend complaining that when he was in France he was made to get some speedos.  This explains it.  I thought he was in a weird semi-nudist resort that had problems with shorts.  Good God

[Ideologue]

That at least is a practical reason, if not a particularly compelling one...

I mean, I wonder, do people often get ill from "pool germs" in France?  Does the whole country have AIDS or something?

[Duque de Bragança]

I've just found and read an article on this and I've no problem with it.  It's nothing to do with Islam (maybe tangenitally) and more to do with horrifying French pool rules:

The police refused to accept the complaint on the grounds that the lifeguard was just enforcing the rules that apply in all French public pools. Women must wear swimsuits and men must wear brief trunks -- Speedos -- rather than shorts, which are said to be more likely to harbour bacteria.

In which case I think the real issue is enforced segregation of ugly and non-ugly swimmers.

Edit: I remember a friend complaining that when he was in France he was made to get some speedos.  This explains it.  I thought he was in a weird semi-nudist resort that had problems with shorts.  Good God

Yep, that's the official rules.

[merithyn]

http://www.champaigncurves.com/

There ya go

and:

http://www.curves.com/locations/map.php?id=011004501535E

There ya go

I don't like Curves. That's a set routine done the same every day. I'd prefer a regular gym sans men. Preferably with a pool.

What is the problem anyway?  We don't bite.

I'm an overweight woman approaching 40. I'm already insecure about how I look and how men see me. The last thing I want is for men to witness me struggling through a workout routine, sweating like a cow, barely able to keep up. Add the adorable, perky little 20-something women that seem to populate these places, where the men ogle them openly while wrinkling their noses at the likes of me (whether for real or in my imagination, it's irrelevant), and you've got a set up of pure hell.

Let me go work out in peace, so I can just get through the damn exercises without worrying about if I look fat, out of shape, or hideous to any men around while doing so. I know I look fat; that's why I'm at the stupid gym to begin with.

And I'll add this: a woman-only swim time sounds heavenly. I could wear a bikini and tan without worrying how horrible I look, because I couldn't care less what women think about that. I could swim without swim shorts because I wouldn't have to worry about unsightly thigh fat or *coughs* unexpected hairs popping out.

You have no idea how different going to a pool is for women than it is for men. You throw on a pair of shorts and hit the water. We spend hours shaving, prepping, doing sit-ups, etc., before we ever get to the pool, and believe me, we don't do it for the other women who are going to be there.

[Ed Anger]

I like to leave a Baby Ruth bar in the pool.

[merithyn]

Demands from the community is not sufficient reason.

Why not?

[merithyn]

I've just found and read an article on this and I've no problem with it.  It's nothing to do with Islam (maybe tangenitally) and more to do with horrifying French pool rules:

The police refused to accept the complaint on the grounds that the lifeguard was just enforcing the rules that apply in all French public pools. Women must wear swimsuits and men must wear brief trunks -- Speedos -- rather than shorts, which are said to be more likely to harbour bacteria.

In which case I think the real issue is enforced segregation of ugly and non-ugly swimmers.

Edit: I remember a friend complaining that when he was in France he was made to get some speedos.  This explains it.  I thought he was in a weird semi-nudist resort that had problems with shorts.  Good God

Yeah, I'll never set foot in a French pool. First, I've no desire to swim without swim shorts, and second, I really have no desire to see a bunch of men in Speedos.