Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Though I believe the problem Muslim women have with swimming is solved in this country by arranging women only times in the pool.

that's segregation and flies directly in the face of the basic tenet of equality between men and women.
Might as well segregate them on the buses and in the workspace too then.
Those muslims knew what they were getting into when they migrated here, just like people from here know what they're getting into when they migrate there.

[Razgovory]

Not so Keen on the segregation thing either.

[Sheilbh]

that's segregation and flies directly in the face of the basic tenet of equality between men and women.
Might as well segregate them on the buses and in the workspace too then.
Those muslims knew what they were getting into when they migrated here, just like people from here know what they're getting into when they migrate there.

I think this an intolerance disguising itself in a rigid adherence to the rules.  It's like a traffic warden's bias.

Personally I don't see why allowing men and women separate time to swim in the pool is discrimination when time set aside in the same pool for just families, just mothers, just elderly people isn't.  While most of the time a pool's open to all.

In fact, from what I've read, we should celebrate the ability of single-sex swimming to bring different cultures together.  In Hackney it was apparently a joint campaign of the Hasidic Jewish community and the Muslim community that campaigned for it.  There were more Muslim women so made up the numbers on petitions and so on, but apparently because many of them didn't have English as a native tongue the Hasidic Jews wrote the petitions and the letters.

Since then Muslim women, Hasidic Jewish women and a number of just elderly women who feel uncomfortable in a swimming cossie with men around mingle, freely butterflying around.

I think single-sex time for swimming is about the state and a public body opening up.  It's if anything more in the spirit of equality of opportunity ('Let my people front-crawl') than saying to swim you must be willing to mix with people of all ages, all backgrounds, all genders (and sexual orientations).  In France you even have to be willing to do it in rather revealing clothing.  I don't think there's anything wrong about allowing 'segregation' if it encourages engagement and equality.  I think it's more in the spirit of equality than a pedantic, tut-ting little Hitler in the council office moaning about it.

[Sheilbh]

Not so Keen on the segregation thing either.

It's an hour or two a week

[Martinus]

She complains of racism, says she will leave the country if she does not obtain satisfaction.

Ok. Where's the catch? 

[Martinus]

Fair enough. Nonetheless, France obviously has a problem with the Islamic faith as a whole, and this is one more item of clothing that is under attack by them.

Two hundred years of vicious anti-clericism and you think they only have a problem with the Islamic faith?  France generally dislikes religion in general.  They work hard to outlaw any new religion entering their country as a cult as well.  To take this as some sort of anti-Islamic thing only is to ignore their culture and history and buy into Muslim victimization.

It was once illegal in France for the Catholic church to educate children...think about that for a second.  That is one of the central things the Church does.

Fair enough, but we have to remember that France also has some downsides.

[Martinus]

Well similarly if the new age fucks were embracing some sort of nutty Buddhism instead of the hippy version they tend to take on that would be similarly as bizarre.  If these Muslim ladies were converting to some Alevi sect of Islam or somethigng more capatible with sanity and the western world that would be different.

That's not a nutty Buddhist view, it's standard in Buddhism at the very least across South-East Asia.  I think my view is that divorced from the cultural surroundings and context of a faith people go for what they want and they have a convert's zealousy for it.  For the new age fucks religion fills the space that pseudo-Eastern interior design can't.  For ones to other faiths it's often different, in Islam I think a lot of people are looking for rules and a sort of austerity.

Although I never thought the Burkini (terrible name) was that bad:

Though I believe the problem Muslim women have with swimming is solved in this country by arranging women only times in the pool.

Well, I'd rather have "new age fucks" who take Buddhism out of its cultural context, than fundamentalists who take Christianity, Judaism or Islam in its full "cultural context" and therefore believe it is right to stone gays to death.

Most problems with world religions is exactly that a lot of their followers can't separate the universal message from the context in which it was uttered 2000+ years ago.

[Martinus]

Sheilbh, I think the argument against both the burkha and the "women's only pool times" for cultural reasons is that the state begins to act like an enabler for gender oppression.

You may compare it to "swimming hours for the elderly" or for families, but one can just as well compare it to "swimming hours for the white folk" and "swimming hours for the coloured people" and this stops being such a harmless thing immediately. And I believe the cultural context of this kind of gender segregation is more like the latter than like the former.

[Sheilbh]

Sheilbh, I think the argument against both the burkha and the "women's only pool times" for cultural reasons is that the state begins to act like an enabler for gender oppression.

You may compare it to "swimming hours for the elderly" or for families, but one can just as well compare it to "swimming hours for the white folk" and "swimming hours for the coloured people" and this stops being such a harmless thing immediately. And I believe the cultural context of this kind of gender segregation is more like the latter than like the former.

How is separate swimming 'gender oppression' unless the women have to swim in a pool of piss?  If the service is exactly the same and it's a matter of choice then I can't see how it's an issue.  As I say a number of the people who take advantage of this are elderly women who, from their cultural context, aren't happy with swimming semi-nude with lots of men around.  A big issue in recent years has been that the NHS started to prefer mixed sex wards and elderly people (men and women), especially took a dislike to it.

Look, I think the thing for me is I've known a number of Muslim women who aren't oppressed by their family, who are studying at university and genuinely choose to wear the hijab and dress in a way that they consider respectable.  They wouldn't go swimming in front of a load of men in a bikini, which I think is fine. 

So the state allowing for either swimming hours for women or the burkini could be enabling the women whose family force them into a niqab every day, but it also enables other Muslim women who choose to wear a veil and what have you to swim.  I think the latter group matters more and I think that for the former this is really small beer and there's probably a lot more the state should be worried about.

When you something like a different curriculum in a Muslim school for girls than for boys then I think that's a case of the extreme or hardcore dominating and the state should stop that.  Or even if there was a demand for pools to be segregated into male and female.  That is segregation and that is having a negative effect on people's rights.

To me banning women only swimming hours or the burkini is like banning halal (and kosher) meat, because it offends our sense of animal rights.  Allowing the burkini or women only hours is like allowing places that wish to sell halal (or kosher) meat to do so.  I don't think a small point of principle and a tiny, miniscule victory against 'gender oppression' is worth the unfortunate side-effect of moderate Muslim women not being uncomfortable going to swim.  It just seems a bit intolerant for very little purpose.

[The Larch]

For example last year the French Senate rejected a law acknowledging the existence of languages other than French in France (specifically Langue d'Oc and Breton) because it threatened the unity of the Republic.

France is absolutely right about that.  Those languages should remain interesting cultural antiques not living languages to be officially recognized.  Regional nationalism does nobody any good and should be discouraged or at the very least given no official encouragement.

You should come to Spain, you'd have a blast. 

[Jaron]

Swim time for whites sounds good to me. I hate being in the water with brown people.

[Grey Fox]

France is Awesome!

[Eddie Teach]

Swim time for whites sounds good to me. I hate being in the water with brown people.

Sorry, no Jews allowed.

[Ideologue]

Shit, I don't see a reason why people can't swim in suit and tie if they want.

I understand it's because pool water is chlorinated, and the bleaching action on normal street clothes fucks up the water.  I don't know this for a verified fact, but it's what my maintenance guy has told me.

Now why a "burkini" (nice neologism, that) designed for contact with chlorinated water like a regular bathing suit would make a difference to anyone is beyond me.

It is remotely possible that it absorbs so much water as it would become a safety and liability risk, I guess.  With your suit and tie example, this would be an even more pressing problem than mucking up pool pH or whatever.  A suit would drag you to Davy Jones' locker toot sweet.

[Ideologue]

Also, for what it's worth, I could see benefit in gender segregated swimming, particularly for women who are either embarassed by their looks or annoyed by people like me ogling them.

Not everything has to be Goddamned political.