Israeli atrocities in Gaza

[Jos Theelen]

I can well imagine the reaction of the US public (or Canadian for that matter) to being told by its government to just suck up the modest damage terrorist attacks on civilians cause. I doubt any government on this side of the Atlantic would be able to in effect do nothing in response to (say) rockets landing in Texas fired by Mexican state actors.

Correct. So the IDF has to attack Hamas. Hamas is hiding between civilians. IDF destroys civilian lives and properties. Palestinians hate Israel more and support Hamas more. That is in my opinion the reason why Hamas fires those rockets. Just to provoke a reaction and get more support.

Which means that Valmy is right with his remark about endless conflict.

[Valmy]

I can well imagine the reaction of the US public (or Canadian for that matter) to being told by its government to just suck up the modest damage terrorist attacks on civilians cause. I doubt any government on this side of the Atlantic would be able to in effect do nothing in response to (say) rockets landing in Texas fired by Mexican state actors. 

I doubt any government under any normal circumstances would be able or willing to tolerate it.

But Israel is not just any government and these are anything but normal circumstances.  As usual I try to think of some historical parallel but there really is none.

[Valmy]

You have a heart???

Yes but I tend to ignore it when it comes to Middle Eastern and African matters.  There are not enough eyes to cry the sufficient amount to tears that some regions deserve.

[The Brain]

I think everyone here agrees that the Romans were right to treat the rebellious Jews harshly. In the name of consistency we must allow the Jews to do the same to their inferiors.

[grumbler]

People are dying in this rocket attacks. You know that, right?
A govertment first priority is to protect its citizen.
What you are asking is unthinkable.
Would you recomend the same if the dying were american civilians?

Mexican drug lords are kidnapping American citizens and taking them back to Mexico for slavery.  You know that, right?

Yet, the US government is strong enough to resist calls for the invasion of Mexico and the killing of the drug cartels (at huge cost in civilian casualties) because the cost of acting is greater than the cost of not acting.

So, what I am asking is only unthinkable if one's thinking is not very robust.  It is unquestionably difficult (even though only about 2 israelis a year die from rocket attacks) and military action would be tough for a strong government to resist.  My point is that israel does not (and cannot have, under curent political realities) a strong government, and so we see the Israeli government forced to act contrary to Israeli national interests for purely domestic political considerations.  Very frustrating, as I said.

[grumbler]

I can well imagine the reaction of the US public (or Canadian for that matter) to being told by its government to just suck up the modest damage terrorist attacks on civilians cause. I doubt any government on this side of the Atlantic would be able to in effect do nothing in response to (say) rockets landing in Texas fired by Mexican state actors.

That is, in fact, happening (not rocket attacks, but attacks across the border on civilians) right now.  Read the news.

[grumbler]

No they wont.
Israeli culture is essentially western culture, with the same value on life and the same taboo on killing civilians.
Palestinians don't have any of this.

Repeating your argument doesn't make it more credible.  "Never" is a nonsense word in contexts like this.

[grumbler]

I'm sure the Israeli's won't mind taking one for the western team

No one is asking them to.  The "Western team" would not suffer if the last israeli alive died locked in a death embrace with the last palestinian.  Only the Israelis would suffer the hit.

[Valmy]

That is, in fact, happening (not rocket attacks, but attacks across the border on civilians) right now.  Read the news.

It is different in the sense the Mexican army is fighting and dying against the same people every day.  If there was a Palestinian military fighting to destroy Hamas Israel would tolerate the rockets better.

[The Brain]

My God man the Mexico drug analogy is dare I say it Martyesque.

[grumbler]

It is different in the sense the Mexican army is fighting and dying against the same people every day.  If there was a Palestinian military fighting to destroy Hamas Israel would tolerate the rockets better.

True, there are differences, but the arguemnt that "no government could possibly tolerate cross-border attacks without unleashing the military" is clearly not true.

I am not suggesting that the Israelis simply cave and wait out the 100,000 years or so until the Gaza residents evolve into glowing balls of light.  I am simply suggesting that a government that was structured in a way that was less succeptabe to tiny-party pressures would be able to act with a more long-ranged view on how to disillusion the Gaza residents with Hamas.

And I am not blaming the Israeli government.  It must operate under the structure of its constitution, frustraing as that is for them and for me.  And, in any case, the blame for the violence is one Hamas, no matter what the Israeli party structure.

I am just pointing out a reality:  the Israeli government cannot act in the long-term best interests of its country because the way the parties are structured prevents any strong enough government from being formed.

[Berkut]

Is it working though?

Does Hamas get more support? I thought they only had a 30%ish approval rating.

[grumbler]

Is it working though?

Does Hamas get more support? I thought they only had a 30%ish approval rating.

The latest polls I can find are from early March http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE52841Q20090309

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Hamas's popularity among Palestinians has risen sharply since a three-week Israeli war in January devastated the Islamist-ruled Gaza Strip, an opinion poll released Monday showed.

If an election were held today, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh would beat Mahmoud Abbas, the Western-backed Palestinian president and leader of Fatah who advocates a peace deal with Israel.

The face-to-face poll of 1,270 people by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research was conducted on March 5-7 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as the factions tried to reach agreement on a unity government with Egyptian mediation.

Hamas, which Western powers shun as a terrorist organization, won a Palestinian parliamentary election in 2006 and seized control of the Gaza Strip the next year after fighting with Fatah.

Israel responded by tightening its blockade of the coastal enclave, increasing hardships for its 1.5 million residents.

The January war, which Israel launched with the stated aim of stopping cross-border rocket fire by militants, killed some 1,300 Palestinians, destroyed 5,000 homes and left much of Gaza's governmental and economic infrastructure in ruins.

"Despite the visible increase in the popularity of Hamas and Haniyeh," the pollsters reported, the overwhelming majority, 71 percent, believes Palestinians are worse off than they were before the war.

The survey said Haniyeh would garner 47 percent support, beating Abbas with 45 percent, if a presidential election was held today. Three months ago, Abbas received 48 percent and Haniyeh 38 percent.

But if the competition were between Haniyeh and Marwan Barghouthi, the popular Fatah leader currently imprisoned by Israel, Barghouthi would win by 61 percent to 34 percent, the survey showed.

Fatah, however, remains the most popular faction with 40 percent of overall support, compared to 42 percent last December, it said. The popularity of Hamas in the same period increased from 28 percent to 33 percent in the latest poll.

The most important priority for Palestinians today, in the eyes of 46 percent of the sample, should be the unification of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Nearly two-thirds believe a Hamas victory in presidential and legislative elections would lead to the tightening of the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip, whereas nearly as many believe a Fatah victory would mean the end of the blockade.

Respondents in Gaza in particular believe a Hamas victory would perpetuate the blockade and the rift in Palestinian ranks.

(Reporting by Ali Sawafta; Writing by Douglas Hamilton in Jerusalem; Editing by Ralph Boulton)

[Valmy]

Is it working though?

Does Hamas get more support? I thought they only had a 30%ish approval rating.

Your guess is as good as mine.  I have no idea if the Palestinians simply tolerate Hamas, hate Hamas, or support Hamas.  Frankly, I am not sure if anybody really has the pulse of Palestinian public opinion but I know I sure don't.  I think that if given the chance most Pals would flee Gaza and the West Bank for Europe, America, or somewhere else in the Arab world but simply are not allowed to leave but I could be wrong about that to.

[Neil]

People are dying in this rocket attacks. You know that, right?
A govertment first priority is to protect its citizen.

Incorrect.  A government's first priority is to protect its citizenry.

If allowing some settlers to die at the hands of the Palestinians would increase the survivability of the whole Israeli people, then that is what Israel's government should do.