Israeli atrocities in Gaza

[Valmy]

Indeed. Palestinians cannot be expected to negotiate with an Israeli government that contains dangerous racists such as Lieberman who want to remove Arabs from Israel.

Palestine has been unable to negotiate with anybody, left or right or racist or not.  That is not entirely their fault but it is not entirely Israel's either.

[Fate]

Hell, it is mostly just desert.

No, Gaza is not mostly desert. Where do you get these crazy ideas? Perhaps you shouldn't rely so heavily on Newsmax for your information on the Middle East.

Fate fails again.

No, you may not have my point. Gaza is densely populated and not "mostly desert."

No, your point that there is nowhere in Gaza for Hamas to shoot rockets from that isn't near civilians is rather obviously false.

Like all human occupied areas, Gaza is not uniformly densely populated, and has plenty of empty areas that someone could, if they desired, launch some rockets from so as to protect their own civilians while trying to kill enemy civilians.

You fail. Again.

Stick to playing WoW, son. You aren't ready to step out into the real world. A population density of 2,738/km^2 is considered high. 

[Fate]

That would be unnecessary. Israel has already doomed itself to future Arab domination by refusing to implement a two state solution and electing a far right nut job.

You know, the credibility of this statement is every bit as high as the credibility of your assertion that Hamas rocket attacks are not aimed at Israeli civilians.

Given that both statements are completely factual, of course the credibility is consistently high. Stick to analogizing the situation in Israel to a Mexican narco-state. You're way out of your league here.

[Admiral Yi]

Given that both statements are completely factual, of course the credibility is consistently high. Stick to analogizing the situation in Israel to a Mexican narco-state. You're way out of your league here.

I thought you were running and hiding on this one, but if not, please let the rest of us know how you aquired the information that Hamas aims it rockets only at military targets. 

[frunk]

No, your point that there is nowhere in Gaza for Hamas to shoot rockets from that isn't near civilians is rather obviously false.

Like all human occupied areas, Gaza is not uniformly densely populated, and has plenty of empty areas that someone could, if they desired, launch some rockets from so as to protect their own civilians while trying to kill enemy civilians.

You fail. Again.

I have no doubt that Hamas intentionally fires from densely occupied areas, but even the least dense parts of Gaza have a density roughly equal to Los Angeles (2900/km^2).

[Valmy]

Stick to playing WoW, son. You aren't ready to step out into the real world. A population density of 2,738/km^2 is considered high. 

They are the government in those areas, is the area really so dense that if they wanted to make an area off limits to civilians they couldn't do so?

[Razgovory]

Gaza is one of the most densely settled areas in the world. Hamas has no choice but to fight the Israeli occupying force with civilians nearby.

Here's an idea.  They could not fight.  In fact Israel is only in Gaza because Hamas is there.  I suspect that the cause of Palestine would be far better served by more peaceful efforts.  Sometimes your cause is furthered by violence and sometimes by non-violence.  I'm willing to bet if the Palestinians engaged in peaceful protests rather then bombing campaigns they would get far more sympathy from the Israelis and would likely get rather generous concessions.  In fact it sounds silly, and won't happen but I think it would be very effective.  I may be off but I'm going to bet that most Israelis really aren't sadists and want the Palestinians to suffer.  They'd rather have a friendly neighbor who they can work with and help become affluent then a poverty stricken enemy who besieges them.


I might be way off here.

[Valmy]

Here's an idea.  They could not fight.  In fact Israel is only in Gaza because Hamas is there.  I suspect that the cause of Palestine would be far better served by more peaceful efforts.  Sometimes your cause is furthered by violence and sometimes by non-violence.  I'm willing to bet if the Palestinians engaged in peaceful protests rather then bombing campaigns they would get far more sympathy from the Israelis and would likely get rather generous concessions.  In fact it sounds silly, and won't happen but I think it would be very effective.  I may be off but I'm going to bet that most Israelis really aren't sadists and want the Palestinians to suffer.  They'd rather have a friendly neighbor who they can work with and help become affluent then a poverty stricken enemy who besieges them.


I might be way off here.

Well you see that is a plan that would actually work and thus the Palestinians are contractually obligated not to do it.  Only counter-productive strategies are demanded in this situation.

[grumbler]

I have no doubt that Hamas intentionally fires from densely occupied areas, but even the least dense parts of Gaza have a density roughly equal to Los Angeles (2900/km^2).

And there are many places in LA where you could fire rockets without risking civilian lives in the retaliatory strikes.

[The Brain]

Pay no attention to grumbler. The man thinks that if you want to have sex with a woman you want to rape her. True story.

[Malthus]

True but irrelevant. I'm not disagreeing that the Israeli system differs from that of the US, only in the significance of that difference.

You say it is irrelevant, I say it is not.  I demonstrate where I think it is relevant, and you simply disagree with no supporting arguments.  Okay, but don't expect to convince anyone by simply saying "no."

True you used neither term. So?

I have no idea what this response is supposed to mean.  There are literally millions of terms in the English language which I have not used.  You cannot expect me to comment on them all! 

Sigh.

  Don't like it when your strawmen burst into flames, eh?

It wasn't an analogy - "a lot less than ...".

Well, then I have used no analogies in this thread, either.

Are you claiming that Mexico is engaged in state-sponsored terrorism against the US?

No.  Are you claiming that Hamas and Hezbollah are states?  They are no more states than the Mexican Army is.

I am simply disagreeing with your conclusions that a "strong" government, by which you mean apparently the government of the US, would respond with restraint to state-sponsored terrorism against US citizens on US soil. I believe it would not do so, and I challenge you to find an example (a *real* one).

Since that isn't my conclusion, I really don't care if you disagree with it.

No amount of you usual semantic quibbling, claiming your opponent is angry, grandstanding for some imaginary audience, brow-beating, claiming your opponent is partial and you are impartial,etc. is gonna distract me. Though it does make me nostalgic for the old Languish.   

Ah, you once again try to drag the argument down to the "usual grumbler tactics" argument, when your intellectual arguments fail.  Well, as you know, I don't play those games.  Accuse me of whatever antics you wish, but I won't dignify the slurs with either a defense or a counter-attack.

Though you gotta admit, analogizing Mexican cross-border incursions for Hamas attacks - tisk tisk. That's one for the books. 

Not as classic as your analogizing the US invasion of Iraq with the Israeli invasion of Gaza!    That one alone puts your picture in the dictionary to replace Marti's.

You can be fun to argue with, when you haven't gone into attack-bot mode.

[grumbler]

Given that both statements are completely factual, of course the credibility is consistently high.

Bob, is that you?

[grumbler]

You can be fun to argue with, when you haven't gone into attack-bot mode.

Sorry.  That "no amount of you usual semantic quibbling, claiming your opponent is angry, grandstanding for some imaginary audience, brow-beating, claiming your opponent is partial and you are impartial,etc. is gonna distract me" line was a bit over-the-top-attack-dog of me, wasn't it?

Debate suspended by mutual agreement.

[Fate]

Given that both statements are completely factual, of course the credibility is consistently high. Stick to analogizing the situation in Israel to a Mexican narco-state. You're way out of your league here.

I thought you were running and hiding on this one, but if not, please let the rest of us know how you aquired the information that Hamas aims it rockets only at military targets.

The MSM certainly won't report it, but Hamas regularly makes statements on the targets of their mortar and missile strikes.

http://www.alqassam.ps/english/?action=statements

Example:

E.Q.B. fired five mortars at special forces east of Khanyounis

Al-Qassam Brigades is declaring its responsibility for the following operations as a response to Zionist aggression on the Palestinian civilians:



Day: Sunday   Date: March 22nd, 2009.



Ø     Time: 09:50 Ø Al Qassam Brigades announced that it fired five mortars at Zionist special forces east of Khanyounis city south of Gaza.



These operations are part of the repelling operations against the occupation assaults on Gaza Strip and West Bank, and as a response for the ongoing aggression against Palestinian people.

[Berkut]

No, your point that there is nowhere in Gaza for Hamas to shoot rockets from that isn't near civilians is rather obviously false.

Like all human occupied areas, Gaza is not uniformly densely populated, and has plenty of empty areas that someone could, if they desired, launch some rockets from so as to protect their own civilians while trying to kill enemy civilians.

You fail. Again.

I have no doubt that Hamas intentionally fires from densely occupied areas, but even the least dense parts of Gaza have a density roughly equal to Los Angeles (2900/km^2).

Have you ever been to Los Angeles?

Do you really think you could not find somewhere to launch a rocket from in LA that isn't near a school or other place where there are a bunch of civilians within just a few dozen meters?

Of course there is. The idea that all of Gaza looks like downtown Manhattan is completely false.

A *really* densely populated area (like a major city in the urban zone) is an order of magnitude or more in density. For example, the built up area of urban Hong Kong has over 100,000/mile^2.

The built up portions of LA are all well over 10k/mile^2. I bet your example of density is for Los Angeles county as a whole - and there are going to be parts of that where you probably cannot even see another person.