Israeli atrocities in Gaza

[Valmy]

This has somewhat dampened Israeli enthusiasm for further pull-packs to "enable" the peace process. 

Yeah and that is what is so especially frustrating about the whole thing.  I especially love the outrage over the Israeli "blockade" of Gaza when nobody else is willing to, or in Egypt's case downright refuses to, come in and take control of Gaza's borders.  Force Israel to control Gaza's borders then hammer them over what they choose to do.  What a wonderous mess.

[grumbler]

Your "actual argument" was based on a crapola analogy.

Actually, if you will calm down and read what I actually wrote, you will see that it was not.  My actual argument was based on an analysis of the Israeli political structure.  How long has it been since an Israeli party had a majority government?

Lawlessness does not equal state-sponsered terrorism, and saying it does doesn't make it so. 

Since I used neither term, i have no idea to whom this blast is aimed.

I don't disagree with the notion that responding with military force isn't always the best policy; I do disagree with your expressed theory that somehow the setup of the Israeli government makes it uniquely vulnerable to this

I suppose part of the problem is that you are not reading what I am writing.  It is not my "expressed theory" that the Israeli government is "uniquely" vulnerable.

- my point is that the US public wouldn't tolerate terrorist attacks for a minute without a violent government response, no matter what party was in charge with what majority. "The US government is strong enough to refrain"? You *must* be shitting me.  The minute a state so much as threatened an attack on a US city, the Marines would be sent - they were sent for a lot less than that in Iraq.

So your analogy to Israel's invasion of Gaza is the US invasion of Iraq?    Man, never accuse anyone of bad analogies again, because you have no cred left!

You seem to be making a big deal about the "state" nature of Hamas in this case, but of course Israel has crossed borders to assault non-state actors (see Lebanon, several times) so this dog just won't hunt.  You also seem to feel that the US response towards Mexican incursions is less violent because the incursions are all by Mexican civilians.  This is untrue, as http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-border-patrol-report-mexican-government-incursions Judicial watch notes.  In 2006, for instance (that's the first return i got from google), 17 of the 29 incidents reported were by armed Mexican government personnel.

Now, while I know you absolutely disagree with my argument, I will restate it for those who have been confused by your persistence in mis-stating it and creating bogus analogies:  Those who argue that peace in the middle east would be best served by having the Israelis exercise unilateral restraint in the face of violence (because Israel's national interests would be better served by tolerating a few tens of millions in damage and a death or two per year than by spending billions and suffering tens of casualties in an invasion) fail to understand that Israel's government is a minority government, no matter which party is in power, and thus is much less able than a strong government to withstand domestic pressures for action.

Sorry if you think this makes Israel look bad. I deal in truth, no matter where my sympathies lie.

[Malthus]

Actually, if you will calm down and read what I actually wrote, you will see that it was not.  My actual argument was based on an analysis of the Israeli political structure.  How long has it been since an Israeli party had a majority government?

True but irrelevant. I'm not disagreeing that the Israeli system differs from that of the US, only in the significance of that difference.

Since I used neither term, i have no idea to whom this blast is aimed.

True you used neither term. So?

I suppose part of the problem is that you are not reading what I am writing.  It is not my "expressed theory" that the Israeli government is "uniquely" vulnerable.

Sigh.

So your analogy to Israel's invasion of Gaza is the US invasion of Iraq?    Man, never accuse anyone of bad analogies again, because you have no cred left!

It wasn't an analogy - "a lot less than ...".

You seem to be making a big deal about the "state" nature of Hamas in this case, but of course Israel has crossed borders to assault non-state actors (see Lebanon, several times) so this dog just won't hunt.  You also seem to feel that the US response towards Mexican incursions is less violent because the incursions are all by Mexican civilians.  This is untrue, as http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-border-patrol-report-mexican-government-incursions Judicial watch notes.  In 2006, for instance (that's the first return i got from google), 17 of the 29 incidents reported were by armed Mexican government personnel.

Are you claiming that Mexico is engaged in state-sponsored terrorism against the US?

Now, while I know you absolutely disagree with my argument, I will restate it for those who have been confused by your persistence in mis-stating it and creating bogus analogies:  Those who argue that peace in the middle east would be best served by having the Israelis exercise unilateral restraint in the face of violence (because Israel's national interests would be better served by tolerating a few tens of millions in damage and a death or two per year than by spending billions and suffering tens of casualties in an invasion) fail to understand that Israel's government is a minority government, no matter which party is in power, and thus is much less able than a strong government to withstand domestic pressures for action.

Sorry if you think this makes Israel look bad. I deal in truth, no matter where my sympathies lie.

I am simply disagreeing with your conclusions that a "strong" government, by which you mean apparently the government of the US, would respond with restraint to state-sponsored terrorism against US citizens on US soil. I believe it would not do so, and I challenge you to find an example (a *real* one).

Whether this reflects well or badly on either the US or Israel is irrellevant. I simply believe it to be true.

No amount of you usual semantic quibbling, claiming your opponent is angry, grandstanding for some imaginary audience, brow-beating, claiming your opponent is partial and you are impartial,etc. is gonna distract me. Though it does make me nostalgic for the old Languish.   

Though you gotta admit, analogizing Mexican cross-border incursions for Hamas attacks - tisk tisk. That's one for the books. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

 

Apparently, the majority of the Hamas targets are settlers in the occupied territories - .

All of Israel is occupied territory for the hamastards.

[Fate]

Apparently, the majority of the Hamas targets are settlers in the occupied territories - .

All of Israel is occupied territory for the hamastards.

They would be correct.

[Berkut]

The issue of "attrocities" in this conflict is not nearly as complex as it is made out to be.

The law is very simple. If you use civilians to shield yourself from military action, then the responsibility for their deaths is on you. End of story.

I wonder how many Israeli soldiers or civilians have died as a result of Israeli reluctance to use overwhelming force in an effort to reduce Palestinian civilians casualties?

Without judging whether that is good or bad, lets posit that the number is certainly greater than zero. I think we can all agree on that, right?

I wonder how many Palestinian civilians or fighters have been killed as a result of Hamas reluctance to cause excessive Israeli civilian casualties?

I think we can safely conclude that the number in this case is in fact zero, since the very goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israel civilians.

Odd then that the attention given to the issue is almost entirely one sided.

[Fate]

... the very goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israel civilians.

The goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israeli military personnel who are unjustly occupying Palestinian territory. Hamas has no ill will towards the civilian population.

[Admiral Yi]

The goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israeli military personnel who are unjustly occupying Palestinian territory. Hamas has no ill will towards the civilian population.

  Their aim is shit.

[Fate]

The goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israeli military personnel who are unjustly occupying Palestinian territory. Hamas has no ill will towards the civilian population.

  Their aim is shit.

I'm sure Hamas would be willing to use Tomahawks instead of sixty year old Katyusha technology if there were a seller. Were the Russians more accurate with their rocket fire in WW2?

[Berkut]

The goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israeli military personnel who are unjustly occupying Palestinian territory. Hamas has no ill will towards the civilian population.

  Their aim is shit.

I'm sure Hamas would be willing to use Tomahawks instead of sixty year old Katyusha technology if there were a seller. Were the Russians more accurate with their rocket fire in WW2?

In that they shot it, for the most part, at actual military units rather than towns, yes they were.

[Valmy]

The goal of Hamas military activity is to kill Israeli military personnel who are unjustly occupying Palestinian territory. Hamas has no ill will towards the civilian population.

If they have so little ill will why do they hide among a civilian population while carrying out their attacks?  It seems like their actions are calculated to get Palestinian Civilians killed.

[Fate]

In that they shot it, for the most part, at actual military units rather than towns, yes they were.

Hamas is shooting at actual military units rather than towns.

[Admiral Yi]

Hamas is shooting at actual military units rather than towns.

That's an interesting claim and it would definitely change my perception of the rocket attacks if true.  What is your source?

[Valmy]

Hamas is shooting at actual military units rather than towns.

How can you possibly know that?  You hang out in Gaza and strategerize with Hamas higher-ups?  Because it sure seems like they were shooting rockets in the general direction of Sderot.

[Valmy]

That's an interesting claim and it would definitely change my perception of the rocket attacks if true.  What is your source?

Fate has insider info it seems.  What Hamas actually plans to do is a mystery to me but he has it all figured out.