Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Razgovory]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Making those criticisms is not made easier by the fact that most people making those criticisms can't seem to help themselves from dipping their toes (at best) into the pool of antisemitism.

How does pointing out that is really Armed Forces killed people who were walking towards a trucks in any way mean that one is dipping their toes in the pool of antisemitism?

scratch away at the surface of most 'anti-zionists' and they'll inevitably start saying how Israel shouldn't exist at all. Or shouldn't be a Jewish state. You know that too.
And it's not gotten any better with the influence islamics on the left.

Don't really care either way what happens there, as long as they all stay there and not here.

Or, people who think civilians should not be intentionally killed by military forces.

I am not sure what drives people like you and Raz to be so blind to atrocities

I don't know what makes people like you blind to atrocities either.

[The Minsky Moment]

Israel is a secular state with equal rights for all. 

That's what the Basic Law says, but it has no connection with the reality. And for the people in the Territories, none of that applies, not even on paper.  Palestinians in the territories are subject to military rule and to the uncontrolled violence and vandalism of the settlers.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Making those criticisms is not made easier by the fact that most people making those criticisms can't seem to help themselves from dipping their toes (at best) into the pool of antisemitism.

How does pointing out that is really Armed Forces killed people who were walking towards a trucks in any way mean that one is dipping their toes in the pool of antisemitism?

scratch away at the surface of most 'anti-zionists' and they'll inevitably start saying how Israel shouldn't exist at all. Or shouldn't be a Jewish state. You know that too.
And it's not gotten any better with the influence islamics on the left.

Don't really care either way what happens there, as long as they all stay there and not here.

Or, people who think civilians should not be intentionally killed by military forces.

I am not sure what drives people like you and Raz to be so blind to atrocities

You assume I'm blind to the atrocities. I'm not.
Call it the results of de-colonization. No civilizing mission, no white man's burden.
It's not our place to solve it, nor to take in those peoples

[Razgovory]

Israel is a secular state with equal rights for all. 

That's what the Basic Law says, but it has no connection with the reality. And for the people in the Territories, none of that applies, not even on paper.  Palestinians in the territories are subject to military rule and to the uncontrolled violence and vandalism of the settlers.

Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, nor do they claim to be or desire to be.  During the NATO occupation of Afghanistan, Afghanis did not have equal rights in any NATO country and were subject to military rule and significant violence.  This was not apartheid, or genocide, or a lack of equal rights in the occupying country.

[crazy canuck]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Making those criticisms is not made easier by the fact that most people making those criticisms can't seem to help themselves from dipping their toes (at best) into the pool of antisemitism.

How does pointing out that is really Armed Forces killed people who were walking towards a trucks in any way mean that one is dipping their toes in the pool of antisemitism?

scratch away at the surface of most 'anti-zionists' and they'll inevitably start saying how Israel shouldn't exist at all. Or shouldn't be a Jewish state. You know that too.
And it's not gotten any better with the influence islamics on the left.

Don't really care either way what happens there, as long as they all stay there and not here.

Or, people who think civilians should not be intentionally killed by military forces.

I am not sure what drives people like you and Raz to be so blind to atrocities

You assume I'm blind to the atrocities. I'm not.
Call it the results of de-colonization. No civilizing mission, no white man's burden.
It's not our place to solve it, nor to take in those peoples

But you do take a position.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Making those criticisms is not made easier by the fact that most people making those criticisms can't seem to help themselves from dipping their toes (at best) into the pool of antisemitism.

How does pointing out that is really Armed Forces killed people who were walking towards a trucks in any way mean that one is dipping their toes in the pool of antisemitism?

scratch away at the surface of most 'anti-zionists' and they'll inevitably start saying how Israel shouldn't exist at all. Or shouldn't be a Jewish state. You know that too.
And it's not gotten any better with the influence islamics on the left.

Don't really care either way what happens there, as long as they all stay there and not here.

Or, people who think civilians should not be intentionally killed by military forces.

I am not sure what drives people like you and Raz to be so blind to atrocities

You assume I'm blind to the atrocities. I'm not.
Call it the results of de-colonization. No civilizing mission, no white man's burden.
It's not our place to solve it, nor to take in those peoples

But you do take a position.

So does everyone re all those other atrocities.

[crazy canuck]

But that's my my point. I asked for an explanation for why you characterize calling out the atrocities as antisemitism, and your answer made no sense.  What does solving the problem have anything to do with identifying the problem?

You and Raz would have it that we don't even identify that there is a problem?

My question is what motivates the two of you to want to silence identifying atrocities?

[Razgovory]

I'm not silencing anything.

[The Minsky Moment]

Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, nor do they claim to be or desire to be. 

Many Palestinians are Israeli citizens, and yet do not in reality enjoy full rights.

Nearly all Palestinians in the territories claim and desire to be citizens in the lands where they live (and where their ancestors live).  Israeli citizenship status is (should be) irrelevant for the territories because the territories are not Israeli land.

During the NATO occupation of Afghanistan, Afghanis did not have equal rights in any NATO country

What does that have to do with anything?
I can't speak for other countries, but in the US equal protection under the 14th amendment applies to all persons, not just citizens.  But it doesn't seem relevant in this context at all.

and were subject to military rule and significant violence.

Military rule from whom?  NATO did not rule Afghanistan.  After the overthrow of the Taliban, Afghanistan was ruled by an interim government supported by the ISAF (a UN body, not NATO), until the full transition to a republic in 2004.

At no point did NATO send in colonists to settle on wide swaths of Afghan land and illegally annex those lands to NATO countries.

[Razgovory]

Afghanistan was an occupied territory, it was a puppet state.  With out US support it collapsed in 11 days.  Just like the Occupied territories of Palestine, Afghanis did not have the right to travel into any NATO country at will, nor could they vote in our elections, nor did they enjoyed the full protection of our laws.  Yet we killed them all the time over the course nearly 10 years.  The situation is very similar.  Occupying a country isn't a form of apartheid.  It is not a form of genocide.

The colonists are very unfortunate, I would advise to the Palestinians sign a treaty with Israel that protects their borders.  They have chosen not to do that.

[Valmy]

I have always firmly rejected the idea that human rights is dependent on citizenship. Fuck that bullshit. There are not second class people.

[Syt]

The German constitution distinguishes between human rights ("The human dignity of a person is inviolable.") and citizen rights ("All Germans have the right to assemble peacefully in public.").

[Razgovory]

I have always firmly rejected the idea that human rights is dependent on citizenship. Fuck that bullshit. There are not second class people.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Tonitrus]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

[Valmy]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

Sorry.