Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Razgovory]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

I'll be gone soon enough and everyone can go back to ignoring inconvenient racism on their side.

[HVC]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

At least on person has a legitimate excuse, not sure what everyone else is thinking.

[crazy canuck]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

What argument is being made that is flying past me

[The Minsky Moment]

Afghanistan was an occupied territory, it was a puppet state.  With out US support it collapsed in 11 days.  Just like the Occupied territories of Palestine, Afghanis did not have the right to travel into any NATO country at will, nor could they vote in our elections, nor did they enjoyed the full protection of our laws.  Yet we killed them all the time over the course nearly 10 years.  The situation is very similar.  Occupying a country isn't a form of apartheid.  It is not a form of genocide.

Afghanistan was not occupied territory: those words have a very specific meaning.  A country isn't "occupied territory" just because foreign troops are present and guarantee security.  South Korea is not occupied territory of the US.

Under the Afghan Republic, the people of Afghanistan had real citizenship and real rights, and voted in real elections.  They owned property and businesses and published newspapers, and all of that was governed by Afghan law, not by American law, and not by the US Code for Military Justice.  The Americans leased land for military bases, but they did not transplant hundreds of thousands of US citizens to take over entire districts of Afghanistan, steal all the property of civilians there, and establish permanent residences.  It makes zero sense to make that comparison.  It's not remotely close.

You seem to be under the impression that because the Territories are occupied territory, it confers some kind of legitimacy on what Israel is doing.  That's completely wrong.  Israel is under obligation to withdraw from those territories - that's what Res 242 means.  They are in flagrant violation.  The Geneva Convention, which Israel ratified, governs conduct of occupying powers.  Israel is in flagrant violation - has been for decades, and getting much worse over time.  Again, none of this is remotely applicable to ISAF intervention in Afghanistan.  It's an apples and aardvarks comparison.

[Razgovory]

It is an apt comparison in terms of whether Palestinians have equal rights in Israel, which is why I brought it up.

[Josquius]

:
Israel is a secular state with equal rights for all.

A viable defence a decade back.
A joke today.

It is racist to say an Jews should not be allowed self-determination. 

I see. So in saying the US would be better off if Harris had won the election I'm actually being racist and denying Americans the right of self determination?

I would say the same thing if someone was saying that Arabs shouldn't be allowed to have their own country.

Depends how you're doing it.
You guys usually tend to come at it from a "Muslims bad" point of view and cynically pretend to care about women, gay people ethnic minorities, etc... Just to beat on Arabs.

On the other hand in my point of view that's absolutely a fair thing to say.
No ethnic group should be "allowed to have their own country". Like exclusively. To the denial of all other groups.

Minority rights matter.
The rights of neighbouring countries to exist matters.
And if an Arab country behaved as Israel is... You can bet the world would have long since taken action. And rightly so.

Josq, you are under the impression that the people who showed up to this march didn't know what had happened.  They did.  They were talking about it.  They weren't denying what happened, they thought what happened was a good thing.  There is no evidence they were ignorant of what was going on.  Speakers at the event were referring to the hang glider attack saying the resistance took a several dozen "Hipsters".
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rabbipoupko_this-was-on-october-8th-2023-after-the-horrifying-ugcPost-7474496851212271616-JRIJ/

As I said you're conflating tonnes of different people and events here.
The world is complicated.
Scumbags come in degrees and most people who disapprove of Israels actions are nearer 0° than the 100 of those cheering dead civilians.

Nobody thinks in black and white more than you do.  You just reframe it as Black vs "Far-right".

I mean the evidence is right there a few posts up....

I really am curious where your radicalisation is coming from as I see you're even picking up the tried and tested "nuh you just call everything you don't like far right"

[Razgovory]

A viable defence a decade back.
A joke today.
 

No, Muslims can still hold office in Israel, they can own property, and generally go about their business.  Sadly, this is not true of Jews in any other country in the Middle East.

I see. So in saying the US would be better off if Harris had won the election I'm actually being racist and denying Americans the right of self determination?

I think your brain broke here, cause this doesn't make sense.

Depends how you're doing it.
You guys usually tend to come at it from a "Muslims bad" point of view and cynically pretend to care about women, gay people ethnic minorities, etc... Just to beat on Arabs.

On the other hand in my point of view that's absolutely a fair thing to say.
No ethnic group should be "allowed to have their own country". Like exclusively. To the denial of all other groups.

Yeah, Imagine you can justify all kinds of racism depending on how you do it.  Who is "You guys"?

Minority rights matter.
The rights of neighbouring countries to exist matters.
And if an Arab country behaved as Israel is... You can bet the world would have long since taken action. And rightly so.

Is this a joke?  Arab states do far worse all the time.  They were massacring minorities in Syria this year.  Morocco is doing it's own settler-colonialism in South Sahara right now.  Saudi Arabia starved hundreds of thousands people in the last decade.  There is no demand to boycott, sanction and divest from these these countries.  Nobody says that these countries need to be annexed by their neightbors and that their people should become disarmed minorities in the hands of people who have already ethnically cleansed them once in living memory. 

As I said you're conflating tonnes of different people and events here.
The world is complicated.
Scumbags come in degrees and most people who disapprove of Israels actions are nearer 0° than the 100 of those cheering dead civilians.

Trump put this much more succinctly.  "There were very fine people on both sides".  You give the benefit of the doubt, and assume that these people are not hate mongers because... they are left-wing.  I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.  I believe that when people go out to celebrate and march after they heard 700 Israelis were killed, I believe that is because they approve of the killing of 700 Israelis.

I really am curious where your radicalisation is coming from as I see you're even picking up the tried and tested "nuh you just call everything you don't like far right"

Well, the double standards, open racism, and celebrating pogroms really did bother me.

[grumbler]

...  During the NATO occupation of Afghanistan, Afghanis did not have equal rights in any NATO country and were subject to military rule and significant violence. 

When did this happen? When has NATO established itself as the occupation government anywhere?

[viper37]

AIPAC controling the government

Do you disagree with these figures as stated here?
https://www.trackaipac.com/congress

[Valmy]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

Actually you know what this reminds me of? Those endless Hortlund threads we used to have. Man those things were endless grinds that went nowhere.

[Razgovory]

It reminds me of that as well.  Josq coming up with more and more creative excuses for apparent left-wing racism reminds me of Hortland coming up with bizarre reasoning why Albert Speer didn't know about the concentration camps.


Fuck man, this would have been a completely different discussion 20 years ago.  A few years back, there was some new stories about a trend on Tik-Tok about how young people found themselves agreeing with Osama Bin Laden's Letter to America.  We even discussed it back 2023.  https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,16754.msg1425319.html#msg1425319

Now we have a popular website tracking Jewish money in America, a link helpfully provided by Viper.  It does seem that Bin Laden's vision is winning through.  Man, if I'd know that losing the war on Terror would result in everyone going nuts like this...

[Josquius]

You're the one with the crazy views here Raz 

It's pointless continuing despite the bait you laid. You'll just ignore any rational answer in favour of going "Nuh uh. You just hate Jews"

[Razgovory]

If only I would recognize that it doesn't make sense for left-wing people to be racist.  I don't think hate Jews, but you do run interference for people who do.

[crazy canuck]

I see that this thread is sadly diving back into the same hole that was Israel war thread...with the same persons and their same arguments that all fly past each other. 

Actually you know what this reminds me of? Those endless Hortlund threads we used to have. Man those things were endless grinds that went nowhere.

I'm not sure which is the more evil act. Denying that civilian being killed by a military, or mocking those who draw attention to the fact that civilians are being killed unlawfully.

It's particularly concerning since the citizens of the country who is funding the military doing the killing thinks that it's something that shouldn't be discussed and are the ones ridiculing.

[Razgovory]

Nobody is denying civilians are being killed.   I think it is quite evil to deny the wide spread use of human shields, to refuse to engage with information that a fascist organization fabricates data.