Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Sheilbh]

I think there's something to both. Netanyahu had built ties with far and radical right political forces as allies - particularly where Islamophobia can be used as a wedge (in this respect I think Modi's probably the most interesting).

At the same time there is a rising strand of old school anti-semitism on the far-right, I think particularly among the young and online. This overlaps with the "race science is good actually" and ethno-nationalist stuff out there. I am not convinced you can play footsie with some strands of far and radical right nationalisms and somehow expect it won't lead to anti-semitism. You absolutely see this with Fuentes or Carlson who are relevant - see Carlson's interview with the guy who blamed WW2 on Churchill as a warmonger working with/for "financial interests" in war mongering.

I think Yoram Hazony is interesting on this - intellectual outrider for Netanyahu who has been central to building relationships internationally with his "national conservatism" conferences. Who recently has been condemning Carlson and Fuentes and surprised they and anti-semitism have emerged as a political force - rather like the frog and the scorpion. I think this strand has been particularly strengthened by the sense of Netanyahu/Israel dragging America into a failed war (which is kind of explicitly how Rubio framed it).

Slight aside from all this but partly why I think Rahm Emanuel's intervention in Israel is important as I think he's giving some home truths that need to be understood and the sooner the better.

[Norgy]

At the same time there is a rising strand of old school anti-semitism on the far-right, I think particularly among the young and online. This overlaps with the "race science is good actually" and ethno-nationalist stuff out there. I am not convinced you can play footsie with some strands of far and radical right nationalisms and somehow expect it won't lead to anti-semitism. You absolutely see this with Fuentes or Carlson who are relevant - see Carlson's interview with the guy who blamed WW2 on Churchill as a warmonger working with/for "financial interests" in war mongering.

I have only recently realised that this sort of anti-semitism isn't as fringe as I would have liked to believe.

The international aspect of the far right is very interesting, with people like Modi, Netanyahu, J.D. Vance and lesser known people in the same boat as old time Nazis, Opus Dei, Alternative für Deutschland and anti-abortion activists, nativist racist Europeans who love Putin but dislike Slavs. It's like a deranged rainbow coalition.

I suppose one way to understand this is to remember that a lot of the intellectuals on the far right draw inspiration from Lenin and Stalin, especially in creating a cadre, and perhaps later a "popular front" kind of thing.

The problem in the end seems to be which group can be blamed, hated and marginalised by all.

[Razgovory]

Nick Fuentes is a nobody. I have no idea what he says. He's irrelevant.
On the other hand you've world leaders including the most powerful man in the world.

I'm using far right the normal way.

Please define far-right.

[Sophie Scholl]

For me, the key difference is that people like Fuentes and Carlson hate Israel simply because they're Jewish. They also hate Jews as a people everywhere. Folks on the Left who hate Israel tend to hate them for their current government, apartheid policies, and warmongering, but don't hate Jews as a people. For the most part. Obviously, there are anti-Semites on the Left, too, but I don't think it is nearly as much of an issue as it is on the Right. That's from my perspective, at least.

[Josquius]

For me, the key difference is that people like Fuentes and Carlson hate Israel simply because they're Jewish. They also hate Jews as a people everywhere. Folks on the Left who hate Israel tend to hate them for their current government, apartheid policies, and warmongering, but don't hate Jews as a people. For the most part. Obviously, there are anti-Semites on the Left, too, but I don't think it is nearly as much of an issue as it is on the Right. That's from my perspective, at least.

Yeah that's basically the difference as much as some want to ignore this.
I don't give a shit that the Israelis are Jewish. What I care about is that their far right government is crapping all over international law and committing crimes against humanity.

Some idiots of course see the world in black and white terms and starting from a Israel critical position start being anti semitic. But the order of events here still remains quite different.

Regardless. I really don't think the anti semitic far right is worth bothering about at all on a political level.
Of course on a pure criminal level they still need tackling. But they're a non entity politically. Anyone on the far right who matters has long since embraced Israel - for some an out growth of evangelical Pro apocalypse insanity, for others out of this "judeo Christian civilization" nonsense, seeing Israel as an ally against Muslims.
The lines are clearly what they are. If you want criticism of Israel - of both the balanced and measured sort, and the insane and criminal sort, you're best off looking left.

Nick Fuentes is a nobody. I have no idea what he says. He's irrelevant.
On the other hand you've world leaders including the most powerful man in the world.

I'm using far right the normal way.

Please define far-right.

Define far left, define left, define centre, define moderate right, etc...
You know what the far right is fine well.

[Sheilbh]

I think both sides have their issues on this and we would really benefit from political movements that were willing to set up firewalls because I think there is some dangerous stuff percolating out there on the young and online - in both right and left. I think there's actually a bit of overlap around the more conspiratorial edges and gliding around "Zionist" and "Jew".

Separate to that in terms of the UK we've had stabbing attack on a synagogue, stabbing attacks on Jews in the most famously Jewish district in London and a spate of four attempted firebombings of synagogues in a couple of weeks. I think we need to acknowledge those attackers were  Muslims who'd been radicalised (and at least a couple of the attacks seem to have had Iranian involvement). I think that's an issue that needs addressing.

I don't think any of this, which is necessary, needs to have the slightest interaction with my or anyone else's views on Israel. In the same way as my views on the Muslim community and the need to fight Islamophobia (which I think is rampant across the UK and Europe more broadly)  has zero to do with my views on Saudi.

[crazy canuck]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

[Valmy]

It is rather horrible that when we criticize Israel, or even to critisize our government's position on Israel, we look around and have Tucker Carlson, MTG, and Nick Fuentes nodding along. It sucks. But it is just how it goes.

It would sure make things easier if Israel would stop electing evil people to run their government. Any time you want to do that would be cool Israel.

Yes...yes...I understand we are not much better.

[Razgovory]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Who is doing that?  You can be critical of Israel.  That is fine.  But taking the stance that a certain ethnic group shouldn't live in a region, or that they are undeserving of self-determination isn't criticism.

[Razgovory]

For me, the key difference is that people like Fuentes and Carlson hate Israel simply because they're Jewish. They also hate Jews as a people everywhere. Folks on the Left who hate Israel tend to hate them for their current government, apartheid policies, and warmongering, but don't hate Jews as a people. For the most part. Obviously, there are anti-Semites on the Left, too, but I don't think it is nearly as much of an issue as it is on the Right. That's from my perspective, at least.

Fuentes and Carlson's hatred isn't not really different from the hatred typical for Israel across the Muslim world.  They hate Israel because it's Jewish, not because of the government.  The government could be different, the Israelis could simply let rockets kill their civilians without responding, and the Muslim world would still despise Israel.

Left-wing antisemitism is somewhat different and more complex than the sectarian/racial hatred common in the Islamic/Arab world, but it is still rooted identity.  And keep in mind that the racial element has always been there.  Communist antizionism, which is the root of left-wing hate, was still racialized.  But even with the Western left-wing hate, one of the main problems is that the people of Israel simply don't belong.  They are too white, too Western to be allowed to be in the region.  Their very presence is a form of racism.

While the far-right sees Jews as anathema too the White race, the left see Jews as peak of whiteness and privilege.  It is two sides of the same coin, and it is to be expected. Jew hatred has always adopted the moral language of the time.  Jews went from Christ-killers, to racial enemies, to Capitalist rail-roaders to white colonizers.

[Razgovory]

Define far left, define left, define centre, define moderate right, etc...
You know what the far right is fine well.

Honestly, I don't think you can define right-wing beyond "evil" or "stupid".  I understand you want to ignore your far-right fellow travelers.  Movements like Qanon and the Proud Boys are dangerous when they stand with Trump, but simply embarring when they stand with you.

[viper37]

But taking the stance that a certain ethnic group shouldn't live in a region, or that they are undeserving of self-determination isn't criticism.

Like the people who don't believe Palestinians belong in Palestine or don't deserve self-determination?

[chipwich]

I wanted to support the Neo-nazi rapist mercenary but it turns out he's a socialist. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Those who persist in taking the view that being critical of the actions of the state of Israel is anti Semitic make the sort of firewall you have proposed problematic, if it then becomes forbidden to make those sorts of criticisms.

Making those criticisms is not made easier by the fact that most people making those criticisms can't seem to help themselves from dipping their toes (at best) into the pool of antisemitism.

[Razgovory]

I wanted to support the Neo-nazi rapist mercenary but it turns out he's a socialist. 

You do have to wonder when guys like Oyster Adolf are ranting about AIPAC controling the government and the power of Oligarchs, and the "Epstein Class" are they just using code words and dog whistles?