EU Canada unification thread

[HVC]

Koreas building commitment was for some steel components IIRC. Investment in algoma to build girders, not finished subs.

[crazy canuck]

The problem is the build queue.  I've seen nothing that indicates that the German company is increasing their building capability, and they already have a full slate for the next 15 years or so.

The reason you've not seen that is because that's not the plan. One of the reasons the Germans were selected is because they are proposing a technological transfer.  The initial submarines will be built in Germany, but the balance of them will be built in Canada using the German tech.

Do you have a source for that? One of the big arguments in favor of the Korean bid was that they, unlike the Germans, would build in Canada. The news reports I have seen indicate that the Germans and Dutch will give up four building slots so that Canada can get their first sub by 2036, but that delivery of the 12th will be 2050 at the very earliest.

One step closer to European integration.  And definitely one step further away from the Americans.

This isn't a step away from the Americans because the US wasn't ever in the running. It's a step away from South Korea.

Yes, the text of the article I provided almost immediately above your post.

The Koreans were not proposing a technology transfer. What they were proposing was that Korean companies would enter Canada to build, but of course, all the commercial benefits flow back to Korea.  We basically just become a branch plant. That's the same thing the Americans want for us, and no thanks.

And it's a step away from the Americans because every step towards the Europeans is a step away from the Americans

[grumbler]

Yes, the text of the article I provided almost immediately above your post.

That article seems to be paywalled, but is listed as an opinion piece in any case. I've seen no source that says that the Germans/Norwegians are going to help set up a submarine shipyard in Canada. The CBC says that they are not.

The Koreans were not proposing a technology transfer. What they were proposing was that Korean companies would enter Canada to build, but of course, all the commercial benefits flow back to Korea.  We basically just become a branch plant. That's the same thing the Americans want for us, and no thanks.

The Koreans were, of course, offering technology transfers, especially around the sub and armored vehicles.

And it's a step away from the Americans because every step towards the Europeans is a step away from the Americans

A step towards Korea would equally be a step away from the Americans.  I can understand the appeal of going with NATO compatibility, and so think that the Canadian decision makes some sense, but there's no way, IMO, that Canada is going to end up with 12 Type 212CD subs. TKMS has two slips able to build the sub, and each sub is on the slip for four years. Two subs every four years, 24 subs to be ordered... you do the math.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, the text of the article I provided almost immediately above your post.

That article seems to be paywalled, but is listed as an opinion piece in any case. I've seen no source that says that the Germans/Norwegians are going to help set up a submarine shipyard in Canada. The CBC says that they are not.

The Koreans were not proposing a technology transfer. What they were proposing was that Korean companies would enter Canada to build, but of course, all the commercial benefits flow back to Korea.  We basically just become a branch plant. That's the same thing the Americans want for us, and no thanks.

The Koreans were, of course, offering technology transfers, especially around the sub and armored vehicles.

And it's a step away from the Americans because every step towards the Europeans is a step away from the Americans

A step towards Korea would equally be a step away from the Americans.  I can understand the appeal of going with NATO compatibility, and so think that the Canadian decision makes some sense, but there's no way, IMO, that Canada is going to end up with 12 Type 212CD subs. TKMS has two slips able to build the sub, and each sub is on the slip for four years. Two subs every four years, 24 subs to be ordered... you do the math.

I'm glad you are doing your own research.  Can you set a source that says that the quoted piece of the article is wrong?

Also, it astound me that you're missing the fact that Canada is quickly integrating with Europe on a number of fronts. 

But I suppose that's all to The good. I guess we should stop advertising the fact that we are rapidly moving away because maybe the Americans might try to stop us.

So yes, you're right, nothing to see here.

[grumbler]

I'm glad you are doing your own research.  Can you set a source that says that the quoted piece of the article is wrong?

The CBC piece that I liked says just that.

Also, it astound me that you're missing the fact that Canada is quickly integrating with Europe on a number of fronts.

Also, it astounds me that you hva e to engage in so much projection about what I miss that you pay no attention to what I am actually saying. I am not missing the fact that Canada is quickly integrating with Europe on a number of fronts, I'm applauding it (with appropriate caveats).

But I suppose that's all to The good. I guess we should stop advertising the fact that we are rapidly moving away because maybe the Americans might try to stop us.

So yes, you're right, nothing to see here.

I think that you are exaggerating the impact of your posts on US national policy.

[crazy canuck]

Discussing this with you is painful. You asked me for a source for what I was saying. I gave it to you in fact, I given it to you before you asked for it.

And now you spent all afternoon, trying to prove that what I posted, or rather quoted from globe and mail is wrong.

And frankly, I don't care that you don't understand about the shift that is going on.  It's par for the course for your nation.

[Bauer]

All these defence deals seem endlessly complicated in contracts, side benefits, etc.   which I personally can't sort out, or can anyone?  I understand both deals were considered very competitive but I feel like strengthening long term partnerships with Europe is a better strategic decision for Canada.

[crazy canuck]

All these defence deals seem endlessly complicated in contracts, side benefits, etc.   which I personally can't sort out, or can anyone?  I understand both deals were considered very competitive but I feel like strengthening long term partnerships with Europe is a better strategic decision for Canada.

Yeah, right now we're just getting the high-level political justification for why one bid was selected over the other and now comes to work of actually hammering out the contract and getting the high-level sentiments forged into actual contractual language.

Prime Minister said an interesting thing and that was that if a contract can't be reached with the Germans, then the second bidder will be engaged in negotiations.

Smart business move to make sure the Germans live up to the spirit of their bid during the contract formation negotiations.

[grumbler]

Discussing this with you is painful. You asked me for a source for what I was saying. I gave it to you in fact, I given it to you before you asked for it.

And now you spent all afternoon, trying to prove that what I posted, or rather quoted from globe and mail is wrong.

And frankly, I don't care that you don't understand about the shift that is going on.  It's par for the course for your nation.

Are you having a stroke? None of this has anything to do with which countries we are from.

I asked if you had a source for the claim that the later Canadian subs would be produced in Canada, because that claim is contrary to all the reports I have seen (including the CBC report I linked). You gave a fragment of an apparent opinion piece (I say apparent because it is paywalled and so I can't access anything bar the title and the header "opinion") and insist that that is true and the actual CBC news is wrong. It is possible that the opinion writer knows something that the CBC does not, but I have no evidence of that.

I am interested in this because delivery times have always been highlighted as a serious issue in the German/Norwegian build (to the point that, for Canada to get any subs at all in the next two decade, Germany and Norway had to give up hull from their allocation.

Now, I lack your intense personal emotional commitment to a specific answer to this question, but I didn't think that any of my questions are in any way a direct threat to your emotional wellbeing.  I can see that I was wrong, and so won't continue to question, on Languish, the Canadian plan and its potential pitfalls.

I hope that makes you feel better. 

[crazy canuck]

Here is another piece from the Globe explaining the political rationale for choosing the Germans.  Again, moving closer to Europe, and away from the US.

For those who have followed Prime Minister Mark Carney's foreign policy, it shouldn't come as a surprise that when it came time for the federal government to choose a submarine supplier, it chose the European bidder.

Mr. Carney has gone around the world looking for trade and investment. But his geopolitical leanings have tilted heavily to Europe.


He often joins leaders of major European countries in foreign-policy statements on issues such as Ukraine and the Middle East, and has signed Canada up for the European Union's SAFE military-procurement financing mechanism. Canada is also slated to host the proposed Defence, Security and Resilience Bank for North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies.

After all that, it would have seemed strange to choose the non-European, non-NATO bidder for one of Canada's biggest military purchases. Particularly when Mr. Carney is on his way to this week's NATO leaders' summit in Ankara, Turkey.

Most of the European leaders he will see there are dealing with some shared problems – the demand from U.S. President Donald Trump that they beef up military spending, even as he imposes trade tariffs and threatens more. They all need other allies and defence-equipment suppliers and customers.

On Monday, Mr. Carney talked about the need for middle powers such as Canada to build "strategic autonomy through partnerships amongst the like-minded" – in other words, non-U.S. democratic allies.