Young People and Politics

[Sophie Scholl]

  Argh. Sorry!

[Tamas]

It also makes Elon Musk and others *very* angry.

A worthwhile goal if there ever was one. 

I was just confused by your cis/cishet thing because I thought -and based on your explanation that correct- by "cis" you can include everyone with birth sex-matching genders regardless of sexual orientation.

[Sophie Scholl]

Understandable! cis, yes. cishet? No. 

[DGuller]

The relevant question is how many comedians feel that there are deadly consequences for stepping over the line? 

The number of people in the West killed by Russian nuclear weapons is zero,.

Respectfully, I don't think that analogy holds.

There a lot of comedians doing a lot of shows across the country every day.  I find it hard to believe that in the last 5-10 years not a single one has crossed the line because of Comic-MAD. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that many have crossed the line without severe or permanent consequence.

The closest example I can think of is Chappelle who has probably fallen off some Christmas Card lists, but last I checked his Netflix shows were still streaming.  That's an odd sort of cancellation.

You're ascribing to me an absolutist position which can't possibly be true, and which I also didn't mean to express.  Of course there are thousands of comedians, so as soon as one out of those thousands displays lack of concern, the absolutist position would be false. 

Maybe I did not express it as such, because writing forum posts as legal briefs would be tedious, but what I meant is that a pressure to not cross the line exists in a much bigger way today than it existed decades prior, and pressure on a big scale makes a difference.  Less comedians would employ humor that is close to the line, thus less people would hear that humor, and subsequently less people would come away with impression that humor on the left can really bite.

[frunk]

Maybe I did not express it as such, because writing forum posts as legal briefs would be tedious, but what I meant is that a pressure to not cross the line exists in a much bigger way today than it existed decades prior, and pressure on a big scale makes a difference.  Less comedians would employ humor that is close to the line, thus less people would hear that humor, and subsequently less people would come away with impression that humor on the left can really bite.

This is pretty obviously untrue.  In the 50s and 60s comics went to jail or were routinely threatened by police for their acts.  Going back further there's no way a comic could get away with talking in a positive light about anything non-mainstream, and would likely have had been physically threatened or worse.

[DGuller]

Maybe I did not express it as such, because writing forum posts as legal briefs would be tedious, but what I meant is that a pressure to not cross the line exists in a much bigger way today than it existed decades prior, and pressure on a big scale makes a difference.  Less comedians would employ humor that is close to the line, thus less people would hear that humor, and subsequently less people would come away with impression that humor on the left can really bite.

This is pretty obviously untrue.  In the 50s and 60s comics went to jail or were routinely threatened by police for their acts.  Going back further there's no way a comic could get away with talking in a positive light about anything non-mainstream, and would likely have had been physically threatened or worse.

That was a little before my time.  I was comparing today to around 90ies or so, and I imagine Jacob was as well.

[Oexmelin]

It's an interesting idea.  Perhaps precisely because youth are so saturated with online experience, live experience can have more impact.  Certainly it seems to hold in the music business where live performance has returned to being king. By the same token, they are also likely more jaded when it comes to the "air" campaigns and more likely to see through the propaganda aspect. (?)

Yes. This is why I have spent a lot of efforts creating socializing spaces at the university for our students. They have a hunger for it, but they have lost a lot of skill/capacity for social interaction (most have become quite anxious about interactions that they cant fully control. I took great pains to create those spaces around the idea of disinterested fun and intellectual pursuits: in most elite universities these spaces have only become spaces of professionnalisation (generating in turn more anxiety, competitiveness and loss of ordinary empathy).

(Thus I have set up a historical board game night)

[Barrister]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

So look - I love Leslie Nielsen.  Good Canadian boy.  Did you know his brother Erik Nielsen was the MP for Yukon for something like 30 years, was Deputy Prime Minister under Mulroney, and the Whitehorse airport is named after him (Erik, that is - not Leslie).

But anyways - Leslie Nielsen was only funny because he was the ultimate straight man.  He was cast in Airplane! on the strength of his dramatic acting chops.  I think he was in lots of things in the 50s and 60s, but you might know him for being the star of the sci-fi classic Forbidden Planet.

But after the success of Airplane!, and the Naked Gun movies - it kind of went to Leslie's head and he thought he was some great comedian.  So some of his later rolls had him in more where he tried to be funny (I'm thinking Dracula: Dead and Loving It, or Men with Brooms) - and he really wasn't.

Plus, you know, he died 14 years ago, so really isn't much of an authority on the modern day.

[Barrister]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

How many real life examples are there of comedians experiencing deadly consequences for stepping over the line?

They get tut tutted at by the annoying wing of the left, but it's short lived for the most part and then things go back to normal.

Clearly not deadly, but Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld) called audience members the n-word in response to being heckled in (checks google) 2006 and his career has never recovered.

[frunk]

That was a little before my time.  I was comparing today to around 90ies or so, and I imagine Jacob was as well.

Well, the first openly gay standup comic to appear on a Light Night show or get a TV special was Bob Smith in 1994.  It wasn't that long ago.

[Barrister]

Cis-gender/heterosexual.

Ok but you can be just "cis" if heterosexual, right? So it's kind of redundant? Unless "cis" means birth-gendered homosexual?

It comes from Latin.

Because this is a comparison I could only make on Languish: think Cisalpine Gauls and Transalpine Gauls.  Cis means same side, where as trans means "across" (note I don't actually know Latin so I'm probably missing some nuance).

So a "cis" person is someone who has stayed with their birth gender, whereas "trans" is someone who has changed their birth gender.

When it came to the gauls - the cisalpine were gauls on the right (that is Italian) side of the Alps, =whereas the transalpine gauls were on the other side of the Alps (that is - modern-day France).

[The Minsky Moment]

Clearly not deadly, but Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld) called audience members the n-word in response to being heckled in (checks google) 2006 and his career has never recovered.

That wasn't a bit that went over the line.  That was a performer losing their composure and getting into a verbal brawl with their audience. That could happen (and in some cases has happened) to anyone in any line of work dealing with the public.

[Jacob]

Yes. This is why I have spent a lot of efforts creating socializing spaces at the university for our students. They have a hunger for it, but they have lost a lot of skill/capacity for social interaction (most have become quite anxious about interactions that they cant fully control. I took great pains to create those spaces around the idea of disinterested fun and intellectual pursuits: in most elite universities these spaces have only become spaces of professionnalisation (generating in turn more anxiety, competitiveness and loss of ordinary empathy).

You mean that most of those places have expectations that they're there for professional networking and resume building rather than socializing and mental stimulation?

(Thus I have set up a historical board game night)

[Jacob]

I get the fear of cancellation, but I think that these days - in the entertainment industry at least - it's way overstated. Getting into brawls with "the woke" is a legitimate marketing strategy. Being known for "pissing off the woke police" can generate attention (and money) way beyond what those individuals or companies would otherwise have generated.

I want to reiterate that my initial point was about online spaces, about meme-culture, and social media (not about stand-up comedians) and I"m still curious if folks agree that the reactionary right has dominated that space (at least in the English speaking world)?

[Barrister]

I get the fear of cancellation, but I think that these days - in the entertainment industry at least - it's way overstated. Getting into brawls with "the woke" is a legitimate marketing strategy. Being known for "pissing off the woke police" can generate attention (and money) way beyond what those individuals or companies would otherwise have generated.

I want to reiterate that my initial point was about online spaces, about meme-culture, and social media (not about stand-up comedians) and I"m still curious if folks agree that the reactionary right has dominated that space (at least in the English speaking world)?

I mean - yes and no?

There is definitely an anti-woke audience out there: Joe Rogan, or Jordan Peterson, do very well for themselves in that audience.  And lets call it what it is - a culturally-right-wing audience.

But committing yourself to "that" audience does mean cutting yourself off from the lefty/progressive audience.  You become a persona non grata to them.

JK Rowling has been very outspoken on trans issues.  She is also a billionaire.  In no way has she been "cancelled".  But all the Harry Potter stars have denounced her in a very public way as well, and she isn't welcome in a lot of lefty circles.  That has to hurt - even if Rowling can still cry herself to sleep on a giant pile of money.