Young People and Politics

[crazy canuck]

Well I would think you can be a communist for example without lomong identity politics all that much.

And you can be MAGA or a fascist, or both, and be all about identity politics.  But how does the phrase "anti-woke" help with the analysis?

It doesn't

What doesn't? 

What is White Christian Nationalism?  Just a nice church picnic?

[crazy canuck]

Interesting, women's rights are now a woke issue.

The Right is truly messed up.

Anything thats different to how it was when a typical boomer was a kid is woke.
Except for things they like. Consistency isn't important.

Even the Boomers grew up during a time when women's rights were generally accepted to be something everyone should get behind.  It was the generation before them that fought the implementation of legislation related to women's rights.

This is more about the Right wanting to turn the clock back to some mythical (for them, hellish for others) time when women knew their place was in the home and all was right with the world.

[The Minsky Moment]

This isn't new; Andrew Dice Clay got notoriety c. 1990 with his openly misogynistic banter.  He was subjected to various boycotts and "cancellations".  Of course, none of that did any harm to his career. On the contrary, the controversy which he deliberately courted lifted him from obscurity to headliner status for a few years. The "cancellation" wasn't a nuclear outcome to be avoided at all costs, it was outcome sought as an engine to generate notoriety.  Chapelle's tiresome "team Terf" routine is much out the same playbook.  It may have lost him a booking here or there but he was well compensated by free publicity and attention it garnered. The problem is that like the old Diceman bit, which wore out fast once the novelty shock value receded, the routine is simply not funny, just mean-spirited.

Again, what causes controversies in these cases is not the odd case of a comic dropping an off-color term or an ill-advised joke in bad taste.  It is a focused and deliberate play to court that controversy.

[DGuller]

If you want to be regarded as a right-winger, sure.  I know plenty of people in my life who are decidedly left wing and always had been as long as I knew them, but are also decidedly anti-woke.  I don't think the anti-woke left is all that represented in the entertainment industry, and I don't think it's because they don't exist.

Specifically what sorts of opinions are "anti-woke"?

I asked ChatGPT to define "woke" from the point of view of a person on the left who is anti-woke, and I fully endorse what it wrote:

If I were a person on the left but critical of what I perceived as "woke" excesses, I might define "woke" in a way that distinguishes between the foundational principles of social justice and the behaviors or approaches I find problematic. Here's how I might articulate it:

Woke: Originally a commendable call for awareness and action against social injustices and systemic inequalities, particularly in areas of race, gender, and sexual orientation. However, in my view, it has sometimes evolved into a culture characterized by an overemphasis on identity and purity, leading to performative activism, intolerance of nuanced or divergent views, and a tendency to prioritize symbolic gestures over substantive change. This version of "woke" culture can sometimes manifest in ways that seem to stifle open dialogue, promote division rather than unity, and prioritize offense and victimhood in ways that detract from the pursuit of practical solutions to societal problems.

From this perspective, the critique isn't of the original intent or the underlying principles of social justice but rather of what are seen as the cultural and tactical excesses that may hinder effective advocacy and meaningful change.

What are anti-woke opinions?  Being opposed to the things mentioned in this definition, as well as the general illiberalism of the movement.

[Valmy]

So its cancel culture 

Why not just say cancel culture? Why do we need so many damn words to mean the same shit?

And are you entirely sure that anti-woke means you are pro-social justice and pro-LBGTQ and all that just against cancel culture? That is what that means? Ok then. But I don't know if I buy that.

But fuck  man we had been talking about this shit or a decade before the term "woke" even existed, at least outside of African American usage. Why obfuscate with this bullshit terminology? Just say what you mean and mean what you say.

[DGuller]

So its cancel culture 

Why not just say cancel culture? Why do we need so many damn words to mean the same shit?

And are you entirely sure that anti-woke means you are pro-social justice and pro-LBGTQ and all that just against cancel culture? That is what that means? Ok then. But I don't know if I buy that.

But fuck  man we had been talking about this shit or a decade before the term "woke" even existed, at least outside of African American usage. Why obfuscate with this bullshit terminology? Just say what you mean and mean what you say.

It's a lot more than just cancel culture.    Did you read the definition?

[Valmy]

It's a lot more than just cancel culture.    Did you read the definition?

I did. Seems the same to me. But whatever.

I am just very skeptical that this word has absolutely nothing to do with your positions. So being pro-trans isn't "woke"? That's what you are saying? You have to be pro-trans in the wrong way to be "woke"? Do I have that right?

[DGuller]

It's a lot more than just cancel culture.    Did you read the definition?

I did. Seems the same to me. But whatever.

I am just very skeptical that this word has absolutely nothing to do with your positions. So being pro-trans isn't "woke"? That's what you are saying? You have to be pro-trans in the wrong way to be "woke"? Do I have that right?

Yes, being pro-trans isn't necessarily woke, intolerance in the name of social justice is fundamental to "wokedom".  I wouldn't say that it has nothing to do with the positions, because both intolerance and social justice make up the term as it is used and understood by those using it.

[Barrister]

This isn't new; Andrew Dice Clay got notoriety c. 1990 with his openly misogynistic banter.  He was subjected to various boycotts and "cancellations".  Of course, none of that did any harm to his career. On the contrary, the controversy which he deliberately courted lifted him from obscurity to headliner status for a few years. The "cancellation" wasn't a nuclear outcome to be avoided at all costs, it was outcome sought as an engine to generate notoriety.  Chapelle's tiresome "team Terf" routine is much out the same playbook.  It may have lost him a booking here or there but he was well compensated by free publicity and attention it garnered. The problem is that like the old Diceman bit, which wore out fast once the novelty shock value receded, the routine is simply not funny, just mean-spirited.

Again, what causes controversies in these cases is not the odd case of a comic dropping an off-color term or an ill-advised joke in bad taste.  It is a focused and deliberate play to court that controversy.

So I'm old enough to remember the "Diceman" also.

So yeah - had Clay not taken that very deliberately provocative persona on he may have remained as a very obscure comedian for his entire career - which might have been short.  But he also kind-of kneecapped himself because he'd never be able to truly "make it" as an actor or comedian either.  Even if the Adventures of Ford Fairlaine made millions of dollars (spoiler - it didn't) he would be a permanent outsider in mainstream popular culture.

I think I have an even better example - Rush Limbaugh.  Let's be clear - Rush had an extraordinarily successful career.  He was never "cancelled", he made millions of dollars.  Quite frankly from what I was exposed to him he was a pretty funny guy too (although he got really shrill and less funny by the time Trump came around).

In his early career Rush worked for the Kansas City Royals, and was always a sports fan.  In the early 2000s he got a job on NFL broadcasts - which was hugely controversial and within a few weeks as soon as he said something even vaguely controversial he was let go.  Because his controversial politics made him so problematic.

But again with Rush - if he had stayed really mainstream with his politics he perhaps would have stayed as an obscure radio DJ in Kansas City, despite his talents.  He took the rocket ride of embracing right-wing politics - but forever branded him as unacceptable to a large chunk of society.

[Tamas]

Well I would think you can be a communist for example without lomong identity politics all that much.

And you can be MAGA or a fascist, or both, and be all about identity politics.  But how does the phrase "anti-woke" help with the analysis?

It doesn't

What doesn't? 

What is White Christian Nationalism?  Just a nice church picnic?

DGuller's term "anti-woke" doesn't help with the analysis.

[Valmy]

Yes, being pro-trans isn't necessarily woke, intolerance in the name of social justice is fundamental to "wokedom".  I wouldn't say that it has nothing to do with the positions, because both intolerance and social justice make up the term as it is used and understood by those using it.

Ok so it is a complete style thing. It is good to know. Being woke has absolutely zero to do with anything substantive. It just means being an asshole in the name of social justice. When Ron DeSantis said "woke ends in Florida" he just wants left wing people to be nicer. That wasn't clear to me.

I do take exception to this part if the ChatGPT

Woke: Originally a commendable call for awareness and action against social injustices and systemic inequalities, particularly in areas of race, gender, and sexual orientation.

I don't know. It went right from something exclusively used in the black community to a slur by right wingers in a very short time. It only temporarily was used to make fun of white leftists who were shocked that Donald Trump won, people started saying how "white people are going woke" as in noticing how racist the United States is. And really these days you just need to spend any amount of time online to see that pretty clearly.

Kind of wild that ChatGPT isn't aware of its use in the black community since about the 1940s.

[crazy canuck]

Well I would think you can be a communist for example without lomong identity politics all that much.

And you can be MAGA or a fascist, or both, and be all about identity politics.  But how does the phrase "anti-woke" help with the analysis?

It doesn't

What doesn't? 

What is White Christian Nationalism?  Just a nice church picnic?

DGuller's term "anti-woke" doesn't help with the analysis.

Got it.  Thanks.  I apologize.

[DGuller]

Ok so it is a complete style thing. It is good to know. Being woke has absolutely zero to do with anything substantive.

If you're not willing to have a conversation, just say so.  I made a good faith attempt, I'll come back when I see that reciprocated.

[The Minsky Moment]

In his early career Rush worked for the Kansas City Royals, and was always a sports fan.  In the early 2000s he got a job on NFL broadcasts - which was hugely controversial and within a few weeks as soon as he said something even vaguely controversial he was let go.  Because his controversial politics made him so problematic.

Something similar happened to Keith Olbermann at Fox Sports. Politics and sports are a bad mix.

[Valmy]

I mean he shit all over Donovan McNabb and said people only pretended he was good because they were blinded by their desire to see a black quarterback succeed and that he was vastly over-rated. In 2000, well after Doug Williams, Randall Cunningham, and Warren Moon. That strikes me as little bit more than vaguely controversial. That was not just insane from a purely sports point of view but also very needlessly racist. I mean Celtics fans are still mad from the Detroit Pistons saying something similar about Larry Bird in the late 80s.

He could have just said Donovan McNabb was over-rated. Then he would have just been wrong.

Donovan McNabb had such a weird career man. He took so much shit for no reason.