Young People and Politics

[Valmy]

I do feel like we have hit the high-water mark of the extreme pro-trans/anti-women movement, and hopefully we can still hit on a sweet spot where we are still kind and respectful to trans people (including using their pronouns) while still respecting certain women-only spaces.

I am happy for any result that is "be nice to trans people". Even this supposed "anti-woman" movement comes from a good place of just wanting trans people to be accepted. But these kinds of things need to be worked out.

Not if people believe the Garbons and Valmys of the world who keep telling us there's no trouble in paradise.

Well nobody is perfect but I only disputed the extreme characterization. That somehow there is some big tyrannical movement afoot.

I have provided evidence that deranged tans activists are capturing the medical community and instigating them to use misogynistic language.

This one article is hardly evidence of that and even to the extent they are it only applies to themselves. I am not sure even if they insist, somewhat absurdly, that their cervix is to be called a front hole is really the giant form of tyranny and misogyny you are characterizing.

BB said that things are working themselves out and you did not dispute that, kind of a weird thing to be happening if tyranny was afoot. As far as me ruining any attempt for trans people and women to come together and singe kumbaya, I am not even really part of that conversation dude. I don't think they are all listening to me for what needs to happen.

[Valmy]

But even if I accepted that perhaps there is some extreme core of trans people that has actual power and influence to actually do something bad (like make us call cervixes something icky), that still doesn't explain why that would justify wanting to oppose gay marriage 

[Admiral Yi]

Have I mentioned that I recently learned the term "bussy," or boy pussy?  Aka asshole.

[Valmy]

Have I mentioned that I recently learned the term "bussy," or boy pussy?  Aka asshole.

Is that a trans thing? Or a gay thing? 

[Admiral Yi]

Is that a trans thing? Or a gay thing? 

I heard it from a couple twinks.

[Jacob]

Errant thought:

Could one of the contributing of the rise in popularity of reactionary rightwing politics amongst young people be that the right has taken over irreverent humour?

Most of my time growing up, if someone was taking the piss out of "the establishment" and being funny (or "funny"), the perspective was usually left-wing.

But in the last decade or so it seems - at least for the parts of youth culture and counter culture that I've been able to observe, aka the internet - that most of the chaotic anti-establishment lols have been much more right slanted than in the 00s, 90s, 80s, and before. Memes, 4chan, influencers, basement podcasts, and so on.

I recall someone - a non-white woman - commenting that the reason they were sympathetic to gamergate was that it was fun, basically. Basically, if you're in it for the lols, your sources are mostly going to push a reactionary agenda.

The online left, on the other hand, seems significantly more interested in policing... which can be fun enough when you're doing the policing, but significantly less fun if you're getting policed.

I dunno, what do you think? Is there something to it?

I find the theory attractive, but I already believe that the left has been sleeping on agitprop for the last few decades while the right has gone overtime. And I think we're seeing some of the results.

[DGuller]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

[Josquius]

The word humour is being used very loosely there.
The right remains as unfunny as ever. But there's definitely something in their taking joy in trolling.
I weirdly see this kind of attitude leaking out into the real world. Some old gammon being interviewed and before anyone says anything about him at all going "oh but I'm just a boomer so I'm a racist bigot right"

As to old comedians complaining comedy has gone stale.. I hear this a lot. Quite a few of them seem to have gone that way. It confuses me as it doesn't reflect reality.
Today you have people like Frankie Boyle enjoying significant success by not just going over the line but taking a shit and then wanking on it.

Rather than the right and their "comedy" I'd say the conditions to allow for it are quite basic as I mentioned before. The economy is all.
Though it definitely helps that we live in a world where behavioural science is well understood and downloading quick snappy messages into people's brains is easier than ever. Simplistic hate based one liners are just naturally better tools than thought out complex solutions.

[Valmy]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

Well I disagree. I see a ton of pretty hilarious leftwing stuff on youtube. The only people I see saying this are really old, or in this case long dead, comedians. I mean I watched Jerry Seinfeld make jokes about ponies and airline food for 20 years and now here he is saying he can't be funny or offend anybody? What is this super edgy hilarious stuff he wants to say? I mean he is Jerry Seinfeld, why would he care about being cancelled? His family is now generationally wealthy. Please let me know the super edgy offensive hilarious joke you want to make Jerry. It will be the first one you have ever made.

I mean when Dave Chappelle says something funny, I'll laugh, his anti-Trans and "all men are rapists" jokes just aren't funny.  They are so tired and predictable.

And I guess the implication is that there was a lot better comedy 20 or 30 years ago and man I think those are some rose-colored glasses. It was fun, but I see plenty of hilarious stuff out there today. There was also plenty of really terrible comedy and plenty of easily offended people around back then. George HW Bush put the Simpsons on blast, I haven't seen Biden go after any comedy acts.

And further with twitter collapsing into bots, Nazis, and Nazi-bots I just don't see old style cancelling really viable, the nutjobs don't have a toxic platform almost tailor-designed for that purpose anymore. But hey we will see.

[Sheilbh]

Could one of the contributing of the rise in popularity of reactionary rightwing politics amongst young people be that the right has taken over irreverent humour?

Most of my time growing up, if someone was taking the piss out of "the establishment" and being funny (or "funny"), the perspective was usually left-wing.

At the risk of triggering Jos especially (), this is perhaps also because the establishment has changed.

When Beyond The Fringe were doing irreverent satire, it was around the time that people were talking about "the establishment" as a thing. From my understanding I think it was an explanation of how, in the UK at the time, power was operated in a social as well as a political context - which became glaringly more obvious as British society became more democratic.

But the "establishment" then was bluff old Colonel Blimps, aristocratic shooting parties, out of touch pompous judges, Church of England bishops etc. That is not, I'd suggest, where power is exercised socially in Britain today - though I think there are probably some constants (civil service, barristers etc). For some groups they just no longer really hold power or influence, for others their own social make-up has changed dramatically.

I think the establishment is different now. And I think that's a little challenging for people who are broadly on the progressive side because I think their founding myth is fighting that mid-century establishment in various ways. At the kindest, I think it's a little bit generals fighting the last war.

I recall someone - a non-white woman - commenting that the reason they were sympathetic to gamergate was that it was fun, basically. Basically, if you're in it for the lols, your sources are mostly going to push a reactionary agenda.

I think you're absolutely right this is possibly a part of it with young people.

The only thing I'd query is whether it's everywhere. It feels to me quite North American - see the insane online-ness of Ron Desantis campaign (although my understanding is that Farage is actually doing very well on TikTok). I'm not sure the extent to which it's a thing in Europe - I don't know if there's a meme side to Meloni or Le Pen, say.

The online left, on the other hand, seems significantly more interested in policing... which can be fun enough when you're doing the policing, but significantly less fun if you're getting policed.

Yeah I mean I think there is always a risk for the left of becoming a bit censorious and worthy. Very serious and not very funny young people policing each other's politics is not really very new. You think of Brecht's The Measures Taken or films from the sixties on exactly these types of people.

It's just it used to happen in sub-cultures and it's happening in public now.

I find the theory attractive, but I already believe that the left has been sleeping on agitprop for the last few decades while the right has gone overtime. And I think we're seeing some of the results.

I know I always do this - but I wonder if in the actual politics, we're looking at the wrong place in looking at the social media/tech side of it? And if instead it's the throwback side that works?

I was thinking this looking at Farage's campaign. As I say he has an active TikTok, he tweets. But that's never really been a big part of his profile - and the striking thing about his campaign (and why he got milkshaked) is that it's quite old fashioned. He does campaign events walking round town (not quite on his soapbox but that sort of thing) and he does big (for a UK election) ticketed campaign rallies in the local theatre. Obviously he invites all the old media but actually he does politics in the real public space. Other party leaders/prominent politicians in the UK do very tightly stage-managed events - photo-ops with invited local businessmen, speeches to party activists etc. It's to reduce the risk of a mess up but is perhaps alienating - especially as what social media wants is authenticity which you get more from a real event even if it might go wrong.

Similarly I've always thought that for all the Tweets, the really extraordinary thing about Trump as a candidate was that he got TV. It was actually the analogue stuff he could really do - through a campaign based around rallies. And, again, the mainstream media would cover it a lot.

But also just thinking about Meloni and the FdI. At the age of 15 she walks into the local youth wing office of the post-fascist MSI in her working class district of Rome and joins up. But it's a world of activism and offices of youth wings of parties, and, from my understanding that's still a really big part of FdI. That they have a base of young militants is a really important part of their identity (as you'd expect from a post-fascist party) - and, for all we talk about the atomisation perhaps that belonging in a real, physical group doing stuff (with social events) is appealing?

By contrast I wonder if the mainstream parties have become so used to the "air war" and fighting campaigns that, to my eyes, still look like the Bill Clinton playbook from the 90s (which was groundbreaking in its day). It's the wrong type of old-fashioned and, maybe, to fight it you need to go back to accepting a bit of risk of an event not turning out right, putting on a show to get a physical audience in a hall (that is not just party activists), providing a youth wing where young people can do stuff etc?

I've mentioned it before but I often think of Peter Mair's Ruling the Void and his suggestion that post-Cold War (in European party democracies) parties became detached from representing specific, real constituencies. Instead they tried to appeal to all, often through marketing archetypes like Soccer Moms or Mondeo Man and media strategy campaigns - and, doing so, undid the ties to their "real", physical constituency. Practically they couldn't bcause while you could, say, be a party representing the interests of workers or capital, I don't really think you can represent "everyone" in that way. There are always trade-offs and distribution questions. And it left a gap.

Though it definitely helps that we live in a world where behavioural science is well understood and downloading quick snappy messages into people's brains is easier than ever. Simplistic hate based one liners are just naturally better tools than thought out complex solutions.

Although we should handle behavioural science with a little bit of care as my understanding is that it has a huge replicability problem which is challenging for a science.

I'm 90% sure it's marketeers marketing themselves as scientists

[The Minsky Moment]

By contrast I wonder if the mainstream parties have become so used to the "air war" and fighting campaigns that, to my eyes, still look like the Bill Clinton playbook from the 90s (which was groundbreaking in its day). It's the wrong type of old-fashioned and, maybe, to fight it you need to go back to accepting a bit of risk of an event not turning out right, putting on a show to get a physical audience in a hall (that is not just party activists), providing a youth wing where young people can do stuff etc?

It's an interesting idea.  Perhaps precisely because youth are so saturated with online experience, live experience can have more impact.  Certainly it seems to hold in the music business where live performance has returned to being king. By the same token, they are also likely more jaded when it comes to the "air" campaigns and more likely to see through the propaganda aspect. (?)

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

How many real life examples are there of comedians experiencing deadly consequences for stepping over the line?

[HVC]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

How many real life examples are there of comedians experiencing deadly consequences for stepping over the line?

They get tut tutted at by the annoying wing of the left, but it's short lived for the most part and then things go back to normal.

[Jacob]

@Valmy, I wasn't so much think of comedians as of the 4chan and all its many derivatives, and the right-wing (and apolitical leading to right wing) memeplex. I can't really think of any equivalents on the left side of things.

@Sheilbh and @Minsky, I think you may be on to something about the sense of belonging, authenticity, and the "real" as well.

[DGuller]

I agree that the left has become a lot more humorless over the years.  I recall watching Leslie Nielsen interview on Youtube, where he said that when you do comedy, there will inevitably be time when you step over the line.  When stepping over the line is deadly, you're just not going to do comedy, or at the very least you'll do a comedy so bland and safe that it'll lose much of its bite.

How many real life examples are there of comedians experiencing deadly consequences for stepping over the line?

The relevant question is how many comedians feel that there are deadly consequences for stepping over the line? 

The number of people in the West killed by Russian nuclear weapons is zero, but I think that quite a few people in the West make important diplomatic decisions with Russian nukes in mind.  Threats cannot be quantified by the historical record of their execution, in fact the most potent threats are so credible that no one volunteers to test them out.