Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

The IHRA definition of antisemitism was developed by Jews and is the definition of antisemitism in such authoritarian countries as... Britain, Canada and the European Union.

Yeah no. In the UK you can criticise Israel without going to court for anti semitism.

Okay.   Something I've seen you and most antizionists do is conflate criticism with Israel with advocation of the destruction of Israel.  That is not the same thing.  I can criticize you Josq, but if I say you should be killed or you have no right to live, then that sort of goes beyond criticism.  The IHRA has been adopted by the UK and the European Union.  That is simply a fact.  It is also a fact that support for Hamas is illegal in Britain.

[Josquius]

The IHRA definition of antisemitism was developed by Jews and is the definition of antisemitism in such authoritarian countries as... Britain, Canada and the European Union.

Yeah no. In the UK you can criticise Israel without going to court for anti semitism.

Okay.   Something I've seen you and most antizionists do is conflate criticism with Israel with advocation of the destruction of Israel.  That is not the same thing.  I can criticize you Josq, but if I say you should be killed or you have no right to live, then that sort of goes beyond criticism.  The IHRA has been adopted by the UK and the European Union.  That is simply a fact.  It is also a fact that support for Hamas is illegal in Britain.

Holy projection batman.

[Razgovory]

I am not understanding you here at all.  The ProPal movement routinely defends calls for the destruction of Israel as "criticism".  I know you have a very hard time seeing antisemitism, but it is true. Here is a map of countries that adopted IHRA definition of antisemitism.





Here is the definition:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

This is the definition in the UK in 2016 and specifically adopted by the Labor party.  As you can see criticism of Israel is not on there, but comparing it to Nazi Germany and saying Jews have no right to Self-Determination i.e Israel should not exist, are on there.  When people say that they are not being allowed to criticize Israel, this is what they mean.  I think you can compare to Israel to countries and political movements that have done terrible things without invoking Nazi Germany.  For instance instead of saying Israel is like Nazi Germany you could say: Americans/Democrats/Republican/British/Labor/Conservatives/Liberals/Communists/Socialists/Russians/Chinese/French/Nigerians/Iraqis etc.  Admittedly saying that Israel is terrible because it is no better than the surrounding Arab States is not the greatest rallying cry for Palestine, though it is more accurate.

[Josquius]

You're ranting about god knows what again.
The fact is you consistently try to brand any criticism of Israeli actions as anti semitism. It's tiresome.
There is a move from your compatriots to enshrine this in law.

[Razgovory]

You're ranting about god knows what again.
The fact is you consistently try to brand any criticism of Israeli actions as anti semitism. It's tiresome.
There is a move from your compatriots to enshrine this in law.

Dude, you have made this accusation for years now and it is not true.  I have consistently said that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are bad.  Can you not understand the words that I type?

What part of the last post can you not understand?  It's clear you don't understand.  Which part is giving you trouble.  Break it down for me.

[viper37]

Oscar-winning Palestinian director attacked by Israeli settlers and arrested

Israel does not like criticism at all.  One point in common with Raz.

[Razgovory]

Gotta say, no matter how much I dislike the ProPal movement, I can't get behind Trump's attempt to deport protestors.  They have a right to be assholes in this country.

[DGuller]

Gotta say, no matter how much I dislike the ProPal movement, I can't get behind Trump's attempt to deport protestors.  They have a right to be assholes in this country.

Agreed.  I found ADL position to be utterly disgraceful.

[The Minsky Moment]

The ADL makes excuses for Nazis now.  It's a disgrace and an embarrassment. It's just an American based shill for Likud at this point.

[viper37]

CBS Evening News Israeli soldier tells CBS News he was ordered to use Palestinians as human shields in Gaza

"We talked to our commander, and we asked him to stop doing it," Tommy said, but they were ordered to continue. He told CBS News it was policy.

Reminds me of some other war.  Can't point it though.

[viper37]

israel strikes civilian tents
And keeps displacing Palestinians toward a smaller zone.

Did you say land grab?  Oh, no, no, no.  that's delusional.

[Razgovory]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palestinian-tortured-hamas-intl-latam/index.html

There is a lot of news about what happens to protesters in the US and Germany, a comparison to the rights of Palestinian protesters in liberated Gaza.

22-year-old Palestinian man was tortured and killed by Hamas militants after he criticized the group publicly and participated in rare anti-Hamas protests in Gaza, his family said.

Uday Rabie was taken last week by dozens of armed fighters with Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, his brother Hassan Rabie told CNN on Tuesday.

Hassan said his brother had altercations with members of the group around a month before his death and had expressed fears that militants would come for him.

Uday Rabie had also participated alongside thousands of others in anti-Hamas and anti-war protests that took place in the enclave earlier last week, his brother said. Rabie demonstrated in the al-Rimal neighborhood of Gaza City, Hassan said, chanting "No to Hamas" during the rally.

Last Friday, a group of armed men affiliated with the Al-Qassam Brigades kidnapped and then tortured Rabie, Hassan said. The Palestinian man was taken off the street, days after he protested.

"They took him, they kept torturing him," Hassan told CNN. "They then called me and said: come get your brother."

"He was still alive" when the militants returned him, Hassan said. Rabie was only wearing underwear and the fighters had him "tied by the neck with a rope, and were dragging him, beating him," Hassan added.

"They handed him over to me, and told me, in these words: This is the fate of everyone who disrespects Al-Qassam Brigades and speaks ill of them," Hassan said.

Hassan said he collected his injured brother and took him to a nearby hospital. Footage shared on social media showed Rabie lying on a hospital bed, covered in large cuts and bruises that stretched along his arms, back and feet. Hassan confirmed the authenticity of the video, and said the man on the bed was indeed his brother.

Rabie died shortly after being taken to the hospital, he said.

A photo shared with CNN by the family shows Rabie after he died, his face heavily bruised, with parts of his hair and one eyebrow shaved.

Hassan, 32, said that the family is "sure" Rabie was killed by members of the Al-Qassam Brigades, and "we have half of their names."

CNN has reached out to Hamas' Government Media Office for comment. The media office has, however, previously said that Palestinians' right to express their opinions and participate in peaceful demonstrations is a "legitimate right, and an essential part of the national values we believe in and defend," adding that the protests were reflective of the "tremendous pressure and daily massacres our people are subjected to."

The Al-Qassam Brigades has not yet publicly commented on the accusations.

A written statement published by Rabie's family on Facebook said that "a group claiming to be from Al-Qassam Brigades" kidnapped Rabie at 8:30 p.m. on Friday. After hours of searching for Rabie, the statement said, his family was told he was in the hands of the group, who said he needed to be "disciplined" for "cursing them."

According to the statement, Rabie was "tortured in the most severe manner with all kinds of sharp and hard objects." He suffered "internal bleeding," as well as several injuries to the head, pelvis and back, his family said.

In the statement, Rabie's family demanded retribution, and that Hamas bring those who killed him to justice.

In a video that his brother said was shot about a week before his death, Rabie is seen speaking into the camera: "They (Hamas) want to take me, they want to kill me ... I don't know what they want from me."

Large demonstrations against Hamas have been held in northern Gaza in recent days as Palestinians call for end to a war in which more than 50,000 people have been killed during Israel's military campaign following Hamas' October 7, 2023, attack on Israel.

In a statement, the Independent Commission for Human Rights, a Palestinian rights organization established by former Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) head Yasser Arafat, condemned Rabie's killing, saying it views "this crime as part of the deteriorating security chaos, the proliferation of weapons, and the absence of the rule of law in Gaza, posing a serious threat to public rights and freedoms."

Free, Free Palestine!

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Finally got off my ass and brought this thread back, sans the "tangent".  If you want to pick that up again, it's in another thread.  Note that I may moe heated tangents from here to there from time to time.

[Josquius]

So, anyone else seen the Louis Theroux doc on the settlers?
It's really good.
Interesting to see some of the same arguments from this thread being used.

[mongers]

Finally got off my ass and brought this thread back, sans the "tangent".  If you want to pick that up again, it's in another thread.  Note that I may moe heated tangents from here to there from time to time.

Good work vM, though must have been a pain to pull it apart.