Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Duque de Bragança]

Right now, Mélanchon's party may be less than ideal, but they are just slightly better than LePen's party.  The difference being that the commies are way less popular than the RN for now.

Mélenchon n'est pas un communiste, mais un gauchiste.  En France, les gaucho sont plus (à) gauche(s) que les cocos. 

Commies did get 9 seats on their own, however.
Guess what, they are pretty Pu-Pu curious, à la RN, out of old pro-Moscow habits (unlike the RN)  cf. « le PCF n'est pas à gauche il est à l'Est » . That's your leftie-wing pro-Ukraine majority for you!

PS: Mélenchon, formerly a PS aparatchik, is also a former Trot, another implacable enemy of the commies.

[OttoVonBismarck]

not with islamogauchists who'll glady destroy everything and everyone the center left works for (the seculars, the atheists, the women, the lgb, the minorities, the people trying to become middle-class, ...).

There's 4-8% Muslims in France.
Even if we assume they're all supporters of the Islamic far right (in my experience, no) this is a lot less of a threat than the white far right swarm.

Please.

I see it is as more than likely at this point by some point in the 21st century, the U.S. will have (reluctantly) have entered an alliance with Russia, China and India specifically to combat Islamism--Europe will have long fallen to it, as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Meanwhile countries like China and India seem to better understand the reality of the Muslim threat--and the appropriate actions they needed to take to stop it from taking over their countries.

[Valmy]

as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Yeah I heard the same shit in the 1990s. That by 2015 Muslims would be the majority in France blah blah.

I don't know if adopting conservative religious views is as wildly popular in France as you seem to think.

When these forecasts of doom fail to materialize then the goal posts get shifted, and now it is some vague date in 21st century.

I will say that since the 1990s actually do Islamic stuff has become more popular among the Muslims minority in France than it was before. But it is a pretty small shift and seems more motivated by culture and identity than some fanatical devotion to traditional Islam.

That is not to say that Islam doesn't produce extremely toxic and horrible people in France, as it tends to do everywhere. The crisis of Islam it is had lots of horrible tenants and ideas in it that need to be challenged internally. But for various reasons I only sort of vaguely understand, this is not straight forward to do.

The main bad thing that Islam advocates for is the persecution of apostates. I come from a country with all kinds of wacky cults who do this, you can't let these religious groups get away with that.

[Barrister]

as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Yeah I heard the same shit in the 1990s. That by 2015 Muslims would be the majority in France blah blah.

I don't know if adopting conservative religious views is as wildly popular in France as you seem to think.

Yeah Otto seems to forget that we've been assimilating people into western society for a couple of hundred years now.  Within a generation or two people might still have some unique cultural foods or something but are otherwise completely immersed in western culture.

I mean - any of the muslims I know who were actually born here are all pretty chill, almost all certainly drink, nobody has four wives, almost no woman has a headscarf never mind a hijab/niqab, and all seem completely unlikely to be terrorists or whatever Otto seems to be afraid of.

[celedhring]

My boss is actually a Canadian muslim. 100% westernized.

[Valmy]

My boss is actually a Canadian muslim. 100% westernized.

I think for many of them, it is more of an identity. Maybe there are a few nice things about the religion they focus on.

Rather like many western Christians.

[Josquius]

I actually know a few French Muslims.
Would never know it apart from them being a bit brown. Pretty sure they even drink. Pork is how you catch them.

not with islamogauchists who'll glady destroy everything and everyone the center left works for (the seculars, the atheists, the women, the lgb, the minorities, the people trying to become middle-class, ...).

There's 4-8% Muslims in France.
Even if we assume they're all supporters of the Islamic far right (in my experience, no) this is a lot less of a threat than the white far right swarm.

Please.

I see it is as more than likely at this point by some point in the 21st century, the U.S. will have (reluctantly) have entered an alliance with Russia, China and India specifically to combat Islamism--Europe will have long fallen to it, as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Meanwhile countries like China and India seem to better understand the reality of the Muslim threat--and the appropriate actions they needed to take to stop it from taking over their countries.

You're so stuck in the 2000s with this kind of insanity.

[HVC]

as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Yeah I heard the same shit in the 1990s. That by 2015 Muslims would be the majority in France blah blah.

I don't know if adopting conservative religious views is as wildly popular in France as you seem to think.

Yeah Otto seems to forget that we've been assimilating people into western society for a couple of hundred years now.  Within a generation or two people might still have some unique cultural foods or something but are otherwise completely immersed in western culture.

I mean - any of the muslims I know who were actually born here are all pretty chill, almost all certainly drink, nobody has four wives, almost no woman has a headscarf never mind a hijab/niqab, and all seem completely unlikely to be terrorists or whatever Otto seems to be afraid of.

The further west nations are much better at it though.

[Grey Fox]

My boss is actually a Canadian muslim. 100% westernized.

So is my boss!

[Jacob]

Without speculating on the the reasons, I think it's pretty clear that Europe has been less successful at integrating Muslims compared to North America (and the UK as well, I think).

I also think that broadly speaking Western Europe is approaching something of a crisis point in terms of integration of Muslims - or certainly the public discourse is perceiving it as such. It may reach that crisis point (or series of crises) or tension may increase and recede without fully boiling over. But the system is under a lot of pressure, and that pressure is likely to continue increasing as globally the pressure to emigrate from the third world (including Muslim countries) to the West is only going to increase no matter how unattractive the West tries to make itself to immigrants.

But to declare that Europe is going to "fall to Islam" is either daft, pernicious, or both.

[Grey Fox]

not with islamogauchists who'll glady destroy everything and everyone the center left works for (the seculars, the atheists, the women, the lgb, the minorities, the people trying to become middle-class, ...).

There's 4-8% Muslims in France.
Even if we assume they're all supporters of the Islamic far right (in my experience, no) this is a lot less of a threat than the white far right swarm.

Please.

I see it is as more than likely at this point by some point in the 21st century, the U.S. will have (reluctantly) have entered an alliance with Russia, China and India specifically to combat Islamism--Europe will have long fallen to it, as you see Islamism becoming accepted by the ruling parties of Britain, France, etc.

Meanwhile countries like China and India seem to better understand the reality of the Muslim threat--and the appropriate actions they needed to take to stop it from taking over their countries.

Relax. All religions are bad including yours.

[Valmy]

Without speculating on the the reasons, I think it's pretty clear that Europe has been less successful at integrating Muslims compared to North America (and the UK as well, I think).

Well first they are a continent that regularly commits ethnic cleansings and genocides so not really big on the whole integration thing. We only do that kind of thing to indigenous peoples.

Secondly their Muslims are refugees and lower class people looking for work or descendants of those people. Ours are highly educated people participating in their home nations brain drains. Not really the same sorts of people.

[Duque de Bragança]

Without speculating on the the reasons, I think it's pretty clear that Europe has been less successful at integrating Muslims compared to North America (and the UK as well, I think).

Well first they are a continent that regularly commits ethnic cleansings and genocides so not really big on the whole integration thing. We only do that kind of thing to indigenous peoples.

Secondly their Muslims are refugees and lower class people looking for work or descendants of those people. Ours are highly educated people participating in their home nations brain drains. Not really the same sorts of people.

Not at all.
Difference is North America was not repeatedly invaded by Muslims (ask Balkans or Iberia), also the jihadi slave raids on Southern Europe until the French conquest of Algeria roughly; the numbers there are far fewer than in Europe, very important factor.

Also, the genocide thing was started by non-Europeans, Turks who happen to be Muslim, so the regular thing is completely bogus. Nazis, yes; Muslims don't disapprove when it was against Jews and don't care about Gypsies.
Soviets, most likely (Golodomor), again Muslims don't care.
Besides that? self-genocide in Cambodia (Muslims were targeted as well by the Khmer Rouge) and Africa (Hutus vs Tutsis and moderate Hutus).

The Americas (specially North America outside of Mexico much more mixed), with the extermination of natives, have a far worse record than Europe. The worse part, happening after the independence from European powers, which is not a coincidence.

[chipwich]

The worst part would have been plagues long before independence.

[Barrister]

Without speculating on the the reasons, I think it's pretty clear that Europe has been less successful at integrating Muslims compared to North America (and the UK as well, I think).

Well first they are a continent that regularly commits ethnic cleansings and genocides so not really big on the whole integration thing. We only do that kind of thing to indigenous peoples.

Secondly their Muslims are refugees and lower class people looking for work or descendants of those people. Ours are highly educated people participating in their home nations brain drains. Not really the same sorts of people.

Not at all.
Difference is North America was not repeatedly invaded by Muslims (ask Balkans or Iberia), also the jihadi slave raid on Southern Europe until the French conquest of Algeria roughly; the numbers there are far fewer than in Europe.

Also, the genocide thing was started by non-Europeans, Turks who happen to be Muslim, so the regular thing is completely bogus. Nazis, yes; Muslims don't disapprove when it was against Jews and don't care about Gypsies.
Soviets, most likely (Golodomor), again Muslims don't care.
Besides that? self-genocide in Cambodia (Muslims were targeted as well by the Khmer Rouge) and Africa (Hutus vs Tutsis and moderate Hutus).

The Americas (specially North America outside of Mexico much more mixed), with the extermination of natives, have a far worse record than Europe. The worse part, happening after the independence from European powers, which is not a coincidence.

FFS - the Muslim conquest of Iberia was over 1000 years ago, and the Reconquista was completed over 500 years ago.  The siege of Vienna, seen as the furthest extent of Turkish expansion into Europe, was in 1529 - almost 500 years ago.  You can't possibly justify why muslims don't integrate into European society based on this kind of ancient history.

Valmy actually advanced a very reasonable and moderate argument on the difference - that Muslim immigrants to North America tend to be well educated whereas Muslim immigrants to Europe tend to be poor refugees - but you rejected that out of hand, instead seeming to just say it's something implicit about muslims (and, by the way, I think all the Muslim Somali refugees in North America would beg to differ).

Finally - the "muslims don't care about genocide against Jews / gypsies / Ukrainians" - is there some survey you can point to on that?  I have no idea why or how you could make such a statement.