Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Josquius]

Europe is a continent basically built upon cultural genocide.
Everyone for hundreds of miles on this side of a line is French and everyone for hundreds of miles on that side of the line is German is not the natural order.

For the muslim immigrants thing... I'd say the difference in immigrants is indeed a key point. Poor Muslims were very specifically imported in bulk in the 50s and 60s to be grunt labour in the heavy industry that crashed soon after leaving them in many cases in very dire straights and needing to pull together as a community to survive.
To get to America you needed resources in the first place.
It's quite funny to see the attitudes of ye olde racists on how much better they thought Muslims were than followers of other non Christian religions. I recall some were particularly disdaindful of Hindus.

[HVC]

It's perfectly natural. As a general rule humans hate "other"  . The only thing that changes is what we consider "other"

[Sheilbh]

Just to be clear refugees to Europe are often middle class. I believe it's particularly the case with Syrian refugees. The poor refugees are, for example, in Turkey or Lebanon or just displaced in their home country. Being able to get to Europe is not easy or cheap.

Having said that I think much of Europe is probably tilted too much to refugees rather than trying to attract economic migrants.

There are also unintended consequences of well-intended policies. For example in much (but not all) of Europe it is unlawful to collect statistics on race or ethnicity. This is because of official colour-blindness and the European experience of how collecting that data has been used in the past. But, for example, we just don't know lots of things that are core parts of Anglo-American discourse on equality. We know how much worse hit minorities were by the first covid wave in the UK because we collect that data - the FT data team looked into other countries and basically those statistics don't exist in much of Europe, I think the same applies for issues with law enforcement. You can't fix what you don't know and it means the debate is just on individual experience, because you can't see the structural social-wide issue. The clever FT data team have done some workarounds on this in the past but it is difficult.

I'd add that I think that reluctance on race or ethnicity has also led to some unfortunate linguistic work arounds. So you often get stats on people of "immigrant heritage" or "immigrant heritage" Germans/French etc whatever nationality. And I think that's a problem. The very language emphasises migration even to the third or fourth generation. I think that is alienating in the way that the emergence of "hybrid"/hyphen identities (based on race, ethnicity, nationality) is not.

And I think that's a two-way street. There was a Guardian piece recently on French Muslims leaving France in part because they felt they were not able to be French and Muslim.

[Duque de Bragança]

FFS - the Muslim conquest of Iberia was over 1000 years ago, and the Reconquista was completed over 500 years ago.  The siege of Vienna, seen as the furthest extent of Turkish expansion into Europe, was in 1529 - almost 500 years ago.  You can't possibly justify why muslims don't integrate into European society based on this kind of ancient history.

True, but Muslims have this Al-andalus paradise legend, even claiming that Portugal (from latin Portus and Celtic Cale) comes form Al-Burtuqal.  Not just hardcore/radicalised islamists/jihadis.
 
As for the slave jihadi raids from North Africa, they only ended less than 2 hundred years ago, thanks to the French invasion and conquest.
Turkish occupation of the Balkans lasted till the early 20th (Eastern Thrace being still occupied but that's debatable) and Cyprus happens to be still occupied and full of illegal settlers, as Palestine. One does get much less coverage that the other.

Valmy actually advanced a very reasonable and moderate argument on the difference - that Muslim immigrants to North America tend to be well educated whereas Muslim immigrants to Europe tend to be poor refugees - but you rejected that out of hand, instead seeming to just say it's something implicit about muslims (and, by the way, I think all the Muslim Somali refugees in North America would beg to differ).

Yet America elected some buffoon who wanted a wall with a neighboring country whose nationals cause no integration problems in Europe.
Why do other poor immigrant, both European and non-European/white integrate or even assimilate and they do not, if not refuse to do so?

Finally - the "muslims don't care about genocide against Jews / gypsies / Ukrainians" - is there some survey you can point to on that?  I have no idea why or how you could make such a statement.

You have to live in France, and know muslims, or alternatively, use French sources.

In the old days, muslims would object to the Final Solution being taught in schools (Zionist propagandada!), deny it, now they actually applause it.

https://www.lepoint.fr/societe/comment-enseigner-la-shoah-quand-on-trouve-n-importe-quoi-sur-le-net-27-01-2015-1899939_23.php#11

Il peut s'agir "d'élèves musulmans qui confondent l'histoire des Juifs pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale avec le conflit israélo-arabe depuis 1948", mais aussi d'élèves de toutes origines qui "tombent sur ces sites et mettront le discours du professeur sur le même plan". Pour Alexandre Bande, professeur d'histoire-géographie au lycée parisien Janson-de-Sailly, qui a participé au webdocumentaire "Les deux albums d'Auschwitz", il faut être capable de dire aux élèves quand on aborde la Shoah que "c'est le moment de l'année où on parle de ça. Gaza, les Arméniens ou le Rwanda, c'est un autre moment." "Souvent, pour remettre un peu les choses en place, il faut partir du vocabulaire", distinguer un génocide d'un conflit armé, relève Alban Perrin.

Emphasis mine. It's linked to the Israel-Palestine conflict but in France, there is also the Algerian War. Does not explain why Moroccans or Turks cause trouble in the Netherlands, however.

Their pro-Putin leanings are well-known, motivated by selective anti-imperialism, out of anti-West hatred, just like your regular leftist, full of nihilist selt-hatred.

[Valmy]

Yet America elected some buffoon who wanted a wall with a neighboring country whose nationals cause no integration problems in Europe.

They don't even cause integration problems here. They change their identities to white American and vote Republican pretty fast (depressingly fast from my perspective...at least the latter part  ) Why the right wing panics so much about the border is beyond me, besides just the fact that they kind of look brown.

America is racist. That is just the frustrating reality I have come to realize after a few decades on the internet. Conservatives did a pretty decent job convincing me that was mostly all the in the past until I became privy to their private conversations   

[Duque de Bragança]

The worst part would have been plagues long before independence.

They had recovered by independence, since genocide was not intended. Conquistadores wanted conquest and riches, not a final solution to the Indian problem. Exploiting them, no problem, of course.
Not even in South America, see the so-called pacification of Araucania by Chile or the Conquest of the Desert by Argentina.
As for North America the use of germ warfare is well-documented (small pox blankets).
The worst for the Natives was after the independence, cf the US.

[Barrister]

True, but Muslims have this Al-andalus paradise legend, even claiming that Portugal (from latin Portus and Celtic Cale) comes form Al-Burtuqal.  Not just hardcore/radicalised islamists/jihadis.
 
As for the slave jihadi raids from North Africa, they only ended less than 2 hundred years ago, thanks to the French invasion and conquest.
Turkish occupation of the Balkans lasted till the early 20th (Eastern Thrace being still occupied but that's debatable) and Cyprus happens to be still occupied and full of illegal settlers, as Palestine. One does get much less coverage that the other.

Dude just listen to yourself - you criticize Muslims for thinking that Al-Andalus should return to Muslim ownership, yet just a few sentences over you talk about how eastern Thrace is "occupied".

My friend - I've called myself a Byzanto-fourtysomething before, but the fall of Constantinople was a very long time ago - even longer ago than the fall of Granada.

[Duque de Bragança]

Yet America elected some buffoon who wanted a wall with a neighboring country whose nationals cause no integration problems in Europe.

They don't even cause integration problems here. They change their identities to white American and vote Republican pretty fast (depressingly fast from my perspective...at least the latter part  ) Why the right wing panics so much about the border is beyond me, besides just the fact that they kind of look brown.

Cubans I see your point, after all those are really political refugees.  Except a sizable part of the Marielitos.

America is racist. That is just the frustrating reality I have come to realize after a few decades on the internet. Conservatives did a pretty decent job convincing me that was mostly all the in the past until I became privy to their private conversations   

That may be very well so, but why project the American history of genocides on Europe? How come countries with no real colonial history such as Sweden have trouble with assimilating certain populations? Or even countries with real colonial history not having significant trouble assimilating immigration until mass muslim immigration?

[Valmy]

My friend - I've called myself a Byzanto-fourtysomething before, but the fall of Constantinople was a very long time ago - even longer ago than the fall of Granada.

Well...by 39 years.

But to be fair most of Thrace was already Ottoman well before that. Hell they moved their capital there in the 1360s.

There is really no way short of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the erm "settlers" ( ) from Thrace and Cyprus. Going to have to learn to live with them.

[Valmy]

That may be very well so, but why project the American history of genocides on Europe? How come countries with no real colonial history such as Sweden have trouble with assimilating certain populations? Or even countries with real colonial history not having significant trouble assimilating immigration until mass muslim immigration?

We have one. Around 1776 there were 1 million Native Americans. By 1900 there were 300,000. That is pretty horrendous but the population has now rebounded to several million. What was the other "American genocide"? Anyway I didn't project shit. There are multiple genocides and ethnic cleansings done in Europe on film. A couple even in my lifetime. And we have a whole 19th century of cultural erasure before that.

Europe is based on ethnic nation states where minorities have traditionally had a rough time of it. Even in Sweden.

So it is no surprise to me that they have issues integrating people. If the Walloons and Flemish can't get it together after living side by side for time immemorial, what chance do some Lebanese have?

[Duque de Bragança]

Dud just listen to yourself - you criticize Muslims for thinking that Al-Andalus should return to Muslim ownership, yet just a few sentences over you talk about how eastern Thrace is "occupied".

Read my posts instead of cherry picking, I also said debatable and mentioned the Cyprus issue.

Greek viewpoint, not mine. It's unrealistic. However, Greeks do not cause trouble and assimilate, unlike Muslims.

My friend - I've called myself a Byzanto-fourtysomething before, but the fall of Constantinople was a very long time ago - even longer ago than the fall of Granada.

Psst, Allies controlled Constantinope in 1918. The Greco-Turkish war ended in 1922. Smyrna was Greek for a few years, and Trebizond was to be part of a Greco-Armenian buffet state (Pontic Greeks got genocided instead). Plus a Kurdish zone still nominally Turkish. Not so long ago.
Muslim Turks, even most secular ones as well to be fair are genocide deniers. The Cyprus issue is still there, as well. Most Turks here are even more radical than in their own countries : 2/3 vote for national-islamist Herr Dogan.

Their last Fan walk in Germany had to be terminated due to extreme right-wing Grey Wolfs salutes.[/quote]

[Barrister]

My friend - I've called myself a Byzanto-fourtysomething before, but the fall of Constantinople was a very long time ago - even longer ago than the fall of Granada.

Well...by 39 years.

But to be fair most of Thrace was already Ottoman well before that. Hell they moved their capital there in the 1360s.

There is really no way short of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the erm "settlers" ( ) from Thrace and Cyprus. Going to have to learn to live with them.

SO Cyprus is perhaps a different story, with the Turkish invasion of Cyprus at least having happened within living memory (although there were plenty of Turks living on Cyprus for a long time) - but yeah I think we'll just have to learn to live with it being Istanbul, not Constantinople...

[Duque de Bragança]

We have one. Around 1776 there were 1 million Native Americans. By 1900 there were 300,000. That is pretty horrendous but the population has now rebounded to several million. What was the other "American genocide"? Anyway I didn't project shit. There are multiple genocides and ethnic cleansings done in Europe on film. A couple even in my lifetime. And we have a whole 19th century of cultural erasure before that.

I said American, not US. You mentioned Europe in its entirety. Try going from Alaska to the Tierra del Fuego.

Europe is based on ethnic nation states where minorities have traditionally had a rough time of it. Even in Sweden.

Minorities have had it better here than the Muslim world for quite a while here, or any part of the world, really.
Even the so-called toleration of Al-Andalus had disappeared by its end (muslim fundies such as Almoravids or Almohads what do you expect?), with Iberian kingdoms being more tolerant, until the late middle ages/Renaissance that it is. Good idea for Portugal to implement Spanish policies about Jews in the hope of inheriting and uniting Iberia...

So it is no surprise to me that they have issues integrating people. If the Walloons and Flemish can't get it together after living side by side for time immemorial, what chance do some Lebanese have?

Comparing Belgian troubles with muslim/islamist troubles is completely ridiculous. Apples and Oranges (not protestant kind that would be a better example for you). When did the Walloons or Flemings turned jihadi again? Please enlighten me.

[Duque de Bragança]

My friend - I've called myself a Byzanto-fourtysomething before, but the fall of Constantinople was a very long time ago - even longer ago than the fall of Granada.

Well...by 39 years.

But to be fair most of Thrace was already Ottoman well before that. Hell they moved their capital there in the 1360s.

There is really no way short of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the erm "settlers" ( ) from Thrace and Cyprus. Going to have to learn to live with them.

SO Cyprus is perhaps a different story, with the Turkish invasion of Cyprus at least having happened within living memory (although there were plenty of Turks living on Cyprus for a long time) - but yeah I think we'll just have to learn to live with it being Istanbul, not Constantinople...

Not enough, you should use Türkiye instead of Turkey. 

[Duque de Bragança]

But to be fair most of Thrace was already Ottoman well before that. Hell they moved their capital there in the 1360s.
There is really no way short of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide to remove the erm "settlers" ( ) from Thrace and Cyprus. Going to have to learn to live with them.

Eastern Thrace is long gone, but not since the 1360s. Try the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922. Rumelia was still quite mixed until then.

Live with them? Turkish Cypriots have to live with them, not Greek Cypriots who live quite well on their own, unlike Turkish Cypriots in the Turkish puppet state in North Cyprus.

As for ethnic cleansing and genocide, nothing Turks can't do anymore (hello Nagorno Karabkh!).