Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Duque de Bragança]

Genocide needs intentionality. Plagues per se are not enough, unless it's bio-warfare.
Mita (forced labour Spanish style worsened compared to the original Incan system) also did not apply to all land, and so on.

The Spanish, and the Portuguese in Brazil (bandeirantes went all the way for this not caring about borders specially between 1580-1640) also enslaved natives, but extermination was not the goal. Even in the 18th century cf. Jesuit reductions.

[chipwich]

Is Duque the sort of person I see occasionally who insists that France never participated in slavery because Saint-Domingue was totally a different country?

[Duque de Bragança]

slavery ≠ genocide
Great, a passive agressive strawman now.  Good night! Off to celebrate the Spanish victory in the Euros.

[Sheilbh]

French pollsters have got bored now there's no election so checking how Macron would do against Napoleon (yes, that one):


It seems the French just want one thing and it's an empire of 130 departments.

[Zoupa]

Eretz France.

Never forget what they took from you.

[Josquius]

French pollsters have got bored now there's no election so checking how Macron would do against Napoleon (yes, that one):
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media
It seems the French just want one thing and it's an empire of 130 departments.

Given Macron's popularity its not too surprising. I'd expect there's a lot of ignorance and just knowledge that Napoleon=golden age.

Ah such a drunken map

[Tamas]

So, if the English weren't dead set on removing him no matter how much of Europe has to burn, would Napoleon had done all that conquering and war making?

[Sheilbh]

Never forget what they took from you.

What Europe could've been

Although Napoleon and Macron aren't totally dissimilar. They are at least both open to strong European governance and fighting Russians.

So, if the English weren't dead set on removing him no matter how much of Europe has to burn, would Napoleon had done all that conquering and war making?

But Napoleon wouldn't be Napoleon without all that conquering and war making.

I'm not an expert (and more pro-Napoleon than 99% of Brits), so I think there were points there could be durable peace - but that would require some form of reconciliation and role for the UK who weren't going to be locked out. But in general I think successful military commanders who come to power will always be likely to do a bit of conquering and war making. It was their route to success.

[The Brain]

Eretz France.

Never forget what they took from you.

How could we? They talk about it 24/7.

[Valmy]

But in general I think successful military commanders who come to power will always be likely to do a bit of conquering and war making. It was their route to success.

I don't know man. Successful generals who become President in the US tend to be very hesitant to launch wars, I suspect from having participated in them.

But Napoleon is a different sort of military commander, his whole purpose for existing as a political leader is the glory of France. While he did do some remarkable things on a civil governance level as well I feel like those were the common sense needed reforms everybody knew had to be done, like doing the civil code or making peace with the Catholic Church, but nobody had the political capital to get it done. Once those low hanging fruit were all handled, could he have continued to be a successful peacetime leader? Especially at the glorious standard the Napoleonic legend required? I guess we will never know.

Incidentally it annoys me greatly that his descendants (well his brother's descendants) who continue to be Imperial Pretenders aren't all in the military. Their entire reason for existing is the national glory of France and they don't even do the minimum. The pretender during WWII adopted a fake name to fight for France, and Murat's heir was killed in action. That's how you be taken seriously as heir to Napoleon not being a banker or some weak ass shit. You shouldn't even be allowed to call yourself Napoleon without a military career.

[Sheilbh]

I thought about finessing that line because of the US and then didn't.

I meant successful, wartime military commanders who come to civil power as military commanders - the Caesar, Cromwell, Bonaparte route.

Not so much military commanders who come to civil power post-war or for that matter the types of commanders who launch a coup as part of the military which has a domestic role but aren't necessarily wartime leaders.

I'd add that also part of the glory of France was extraction for that - particularly Italy and the Netherlands.

[Valmy]

I thought about finessing that line because of the US and then didn't.

I meant successful, wartime military commanders who come to civil power as military commanders - the Caesar, Cromwell, Bonaparte route.

Not so much military commanders who come to civil power post-war or for that matter the types of commanders who launch a coup as part of the military which has a domestic role but aren't necessarily wartime leaders.

I'd add that also part of the glory of France was extraction for that - particularly Italy and the Netherlands.

Yeah, the Duke of Wellington wasn't particularly bellicose as PM either.

[HVC]

The desire to crown yourself emperor doesn't exactly portray a man looking for peace and tranquility

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Never forget what they took from you.

What Europe could've been

thanks, but no thanks.

[viper37]

So, if the English weren't dead set on removing him no matter how much of Europe has to burn, would Napoleon had done all that conquering and war making?

Half the wars would not have happened.

The other half are a toss up.