Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Oexmelin]

To be fair to Duque, he's been quite open about his values for quite a long time.

Quite open? Duque is constantly equivocating about his support for the far right ("too late, sorry!"), and just oversaturates his posts with so much oblique references, ellipses, fake irony, ultra-specific points about French politics using nicknames borrowed from the French press (sometimes from years ago) that I doubt people here really understand what his values are.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't think Sheilbh was talking about you at all

Given that I am active a lot in this thread and he replied to my posts in this matter I find it hard to believe. Not to mention he does not to like to be reminded of his de facto support of "Jupiter".

Plus, it's still an electoral promise, something which does not carry much weight and will be quietly discarded in favour of return to good ol' double peine.

Zemmour has a history of being more moderate in his books and sometimes throwing a provocative concept as the polemist he is, hence why I am not triggered by the figure.

Would you object to the figure if you believed it was a real statement of intent?

I'd rather object about real issues, e.g putinolatry, the reason why he is not going to make it to the run-off.
Return to double peine, ending lax enforcement of expulsion sentences is nothing special in my book. Your kilometrage may vary of course but is hardly relevant to the French context.

[Duque de Bragança]

To be fair to Duque, he's been quite open about his values for quite a long time.

Quite open? Duque is constantly equivocating about his support for the far right ("too late, sorry!"), and just oversaturates his posts with so much oblique references, ellipses, fake irony, ultra-specific points about French politics using nicknames borrowed from the French press (sometimes from years ago) that I doubt people here really understand what his values are.

Years ago? Still in common use, since  you are a Francophone you don't have the Anglo excuse of being ignorant.
Yes, even Flanby.

I am no longer a crypto-Marine supporter ?!
Make up your mind, dammit.

PS:" far-right" (Sarkozy ? Pécresse ? )support  dog whistling duly noted but not enough, sorry.

[Duque de Bragança]

https://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/presidentielles/un-concept-injuste-et-antirepublicain-marine-le-pen-raille-la-remigration-promue-par-eric-zemmour-20220322

J'ai toujours été en désaccord profond avec ce concept. Il semblerait qu'il ait évolué avec ce que propose Éric Zemmour, et je ne sais pas quel périmètre il lui donne aujourd'hui, pointe l'impétrante du RN. Mais je sais ce qu'il contenait quand ce concept a été créé.»

So basically Marine criticises a concept used by Zemmour without exactly knowing what he is talking about. A bit à la some people on Languish, and/or Macro(n), take your pick. 

Invitée mardi soir de l'émission La France dans les Yeux sur BFMTV, la prétendante nationaliste y voit «un concept profondément injuste». «Je sais très bien d'où vient ce concept. C'est un concept qui a été créé par quelqu'un qui s'appelle Jean-Yves Le Gallou (ancienne personnalité du FN). L'idée qu'il prônait était de supprimer la nationalité française à des gens qui l'avaient déjà obtenue. Soit par naturalisation, soit en vertu du droit du sol», a d'abord développé Marine Le Pen. Et ce, «de manière globale et générale. Nonobstant le comportement individuel de chacun, qui peut entraîner la déchéance de nationalité qui peut être parfaitement justifiée.»

Quick reminder of the origin of the concept according to her. I still think it's more Lesquen, possibly watered down since Lesquen does not really believe in assimilation unlike Zemmour.
By the way, it's also a potshot at the old FN, i.e his father. Why I am not surprised. At least, her niece who went over to Zemmour is not included.

Interrogée sur le «racisme» de cette notion, Marine Le Pen botte en touche : «Je ne suis pas sûre que cela ait un rapport avec la race. Mais c'est surtout totalement antirépublicain». Si elle avait été au pouvoir, la députée du Pas-de-Calais l'affirme: elle «n'aurait pas donné la nationalité française à un certain nombre de personnes qui l'ont obtenu automatiquement» mais «la loi a fait qu'ils ont obtenu la nationalité française.»

Marine says now she is not sure it's "racist" but says it's anti-republic (against the values of the French republic).
OTOH, she states she would have not given French IDs so liberally.

À LIRE AUSSI Réfugiés ukrainiens: le mea culpa de Zemmour

A bit late for Zemmour, a huge faux pas or at the very least a blunder, given his voters were not opposed to it.

Élue, celle qui se présente pour la troisième fois promet que ces Français la «garderont» : «Moi je respecte l'État de droit. Les gens qui ont obtenu la nationalité française, y compris sur des critères que je conteste, ils sont des Français à part entière.» En somme, la prétendante du RN refusera l'instauration de tout ministère de la remigration ou même de «l'immigration», comme cela avait été le cas au début de la présidence de Nicolas Sarkozy en 2007. Une différence entretenue avec Éric Zemmour qui l'amène à vouloir piloter sa politique migratoire via le ministère de l'Intérieur.

So basically, not even a return to "far-right" (by Œxmelin's criteria) Sarkozy, who had a ministry of immigration (not r(é)emigration). Double peine being restricted not counting for some unexplained reason.

Well, that's pretty moderate. Some will argue she needs to be or appear more moderate than Zemmour in order to get to the run-off. She can always change her mind like a good demagog as Macron, obviously. 

[Oexmelin]

Yes, years ago. People on Languish don't read the French press, and I am willing to bet most people on Languish just give up deciphering your points, trying to remember who Flamby is and who your version of Flamby 2.0 may be (and what it actually refers to in your mind), as well as trying to figure out what is irony, and what isn't. Kudos to Sheilbh for attempting to engage.

You will of course forgive me if I don't especially harbor the desire to meet your approval for what is being "enough" or "adequate" or "appropriate" marker of politics, considering you never show that much scruples yourself when it comes to others. 

[Zoupa]

Let's say it's Le Pen vs Macron for the 2nd round.

Who would you vote for Duque?

[viper37]

Hmm.  Globally, yes, but the nations were individually dealt with, once they were in minority, due to disease or open warfare.  Apaches weren't subdued at the same time as the Hurons were.  It's difficult to trace a specific parallel.

However, unrestricted immigration can lead to a replacement of the values and the culture of a specific theory.  Indigenous nations today living close to our cities live like us, they were in effect assimilated.  It could (emphasis on the italic), locally, if too much people of the same group arrive without being sufficiently integrated.  

It's important to keep in mind that immigration (economic immigrants as well as well as refugees) has a short term cost, you need to integrate these people into your society, help them take off on their own wings for a while.  It usually takes 3 generations on average before an immigrant can contribute more than it has cost to grant him/her refuge.  You need to house them and feed them in the short term, you need to help them find a job, you need to teach them the language of the place.

The decision on how much resources to allocate to immigration (again, including refugees), is a political one and it should be discusses as any other issues.  Wanting unlimited immigration is as equally stupid as wanting none.  We certainly need immigrants in our societies, and for the most part, everyone is very welcoming of refugees. 

However, I am unsure current policies that tend to place migrants only in large cities, creating ghettos is appropriate.  It creates problems in some European cities, and I'm unsure this is the model to replicate.

[viper37]

Let's say it's Le Pen vs Macron for the 2nd round.

Who would you vote for Duque?

I'm betting he'll pick Macron.  Never figured him for a Le Pen fan.

Am I wrong, Duque?

[Jacob]

Quite open? Duque is constantly equivocating about his support for the far right ("too late, sorry!"), and just oversaturates his posts with so much oblique references, ellipses, fake irony, ultra-specific points about French politics using nicknames borrowed from the French press (sometimes from years ago) that I doubt people here really understand what his values are.

It's a pretty clear strategy and one which is consistent with a recognizable position. While I lack the detailed knowledge to place it specifically in a French context, the MO is fairly widespread and not that ambiguous (in spite of the deliberate embracing of ambiguity as a strategy).

[Oexmelin]

Fair point. Perhaps it's clearer to others than I thought.

[Duque de Bragança]

Let's say it's Le Pen vs Macron for the 2nd round.

Who would you vote for Duque?

I'm betting he'll pick Macron.  Never figured him for a Le Pen fan.

Am I wrong, Duque?

Yes, very. It's very dangerous to vote Macron if you don't make 5 to 10 K € per month after tax.

Not to mention it's not as binary as people here seem to think. You can vote blank and then vote differently in the legislative elections (not Macron or Le Pen since both don't really stand a chance anyway where I live).

[Josquius]

It's dangerous to not vote for the literal Putin loving fascist?

[viper37]

come on.  I'll defend you on lots of things, but not this.  Drop the superior act.  Sheilb is probably more knowledgeable of French politics than I am, yet I am a franco.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's dangerous to not vote for the literal Putin loving fascist?

We have no fascist candidates in this election, sorry. Poutinolâtres from the left and right, yes unfortunately.
Sadly or not, politics tend to be local.
Even Macron stated he won't call Putin a butcher and was quite cozy with him until recently.

[Duque de Bragança]

Yes, years ago. People on Languish don't read the French press, and I am willing to bet most people on Languish just give up deciphering your points, trying to remember who Flamby is and who your version of Flamby 2.0 may be (and what it actually refers to in your mind), as well as trying to figure out what is irony, and what isn't. Kudos to Sheilbh for attempting to engage.

It's still common parlance. Just because Flanby is forgotten abroad, rightly perhaps, does not mean his legacy is still around i.e Macron. The self-styled enemy of finance hiring a Rotschild banker, that has to be something unforgettable.

You will of course forgive me if I don't especially harbor the desire to meet your approval for what is being "enough" or "adequate" or "appropriate" marker of politics, considering you never show that much scruples yourself when it comes to others.

I don't need your approval to be honest. Just do not expect me to take you seriously if you slide into Anglo-like ignorance and narrow-minded vision of French politics.

Scruples? My, aren't we a wee bit moralistic. The passive agressive part I'll pretend to not see it, since it is beneath you.