Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Josquius]

To me western Europe/Eastern Europe is a pretty clear old cold war split.... With Russia being its own thing totally off on its own and Ukraine and Belarus torn between Eastern Europe and Greater Russia.

Insistence that the east is actually central because European Russia is so big drives my scorn.

[DGuller]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

[Tamas]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

And the list of this countries is as follows:

[Sheilbh]

To me western Europe/Eastern Europe is a pretty clear old cold war split.... With Russia being its own thing totally off on its own and Ukraine and Belarus torn between Eastern Europe and Greater Russia.

Insistence that the east is actually central because European Russia is so big drives my scorn.

Wrong. I'm maybe going a little far with my defence of Ukraine as central Europe But I think there is such a thing as Central Europe and I think its historic/cultural experience is deeper than the incredibly transient 45 years after WW2.

I think it's arguable that to an extent central Europe doesn't exist any more because of the ethnic cleansing of the war and what defined it was an ethnic/national diversity across the region in a way that was quite alien to Western Europe or, possibly most of Eastern Europe. And there's been a bit historical debate over what it is.

But I think there is still a cultural shape to that region that is distinct - you see it when you travel from Kyiv or Odessa to Lviv, for example, while travelling from Prague to Lviv feels broadly similar. Prague, Berlin, Budapest, Lviv - I'd argue Krakow and Warsaw (even though it was in Congress Poland) too - exist in a slightly distinct cultural space. It reflects the long history before the 20th century of Prussia/Germany and Austria-Hungary, but lingers as different from Eastern Europe which I think is largely shaped by experience of being ruled by the Russian Empire, and different from Western Europe. I think economically this area looked different to the rest of Eastern Europe that it was largely annexed by in 1945 - it was far more urban, far more industrialised including with a history of significant manufacturing of luxury goods.

I think there's a wonderful piece on "Central Europe" by Timothy Garton Ash from 1986 (originally for the New York Review of Books but he's done loads of pieces on it and those countries):
https://www.visegradgroup.eu/the-visegrad-book/ash-timothy-garton-does

[The Brain]

It's called the Eastern Bloc, not Central & Eastern Bloc.

[Eddie Teach]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

And the list of this countries is as follows:

Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany(has part of Warsaw pact) Austria, Sweden, Finland

[The Brain]

Sweden and Finland aren't central Europe. There's a north-south dimension to "central" as well.

[DGuller]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

And the list of this countries is as follows:

Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany(has part of Warsaw pact) Austria, Sweden, Finland

Every one of those except for Czech Republic is far too economically developed to be anything other than Western Europe.  Czech Republic is the one and only country I can think of that's definitely Central Europe.  Maybe Slovakia, Slovenia, and Croatia count as well.

[Duque de Bragança]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

And the list of this countries is as follows:

Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany(has part of Warsaw pact) Austria, Sweden, Finland

Every one of those except for Czech Republic is far too economically developed to be anything other than Western Europe.  Czech Republic is the one and only country I can think of that's definitely Central Europe.  Maybe Slovakia, Slovenia, and Croatia count as well.

So Slovenia and Croatia graduated from Balkans to Central Europe? Nice. 
In Wien fängt der Balkan an.  (Balkans start in Vienna).

[Josquius]

To me western Europe/Eastern Europe is a pretty clear old cold war split.... With Russia being its own thing totally off on its own and Ukraine and Belarus torn between Eastern Europe and Greater Russia.

Insistence that the east is actually central because European Russia is so big drives my scorn.

Wrong. I'm maybe going a little far with my defence of Ukraine as central Europe But I think there is such a thing as Central Europe and I think its historic/cultural experience is deeper than the incredibly transient 45 years after WW2.

I think it's arguable that to an extent central Europe doesn't exist any more because of the ethnic cleansing of the war and what defined it was an ethnic/national diversity across the region in a way that was quite alien to Western Europe or, possibly most of Eastern Europe. And there's been a bit historical debate over what it is.

But I think there is still a cultural shape to that region that is distinct - you see it when you travel from Kyiv or Odessa to Lviv, for example, while travelling from Prague to Lviv feels broadly similar. Prague, Berlin, Budapest, Lviv - I'd argue Krakow and Warsaw (even though it was in Congress Poland) too - exist in a slightly distinct cultural space. It reflects the long history before the 20th century of Prussia/Germany and Austria-Hungary, but lingers as different from Eastern Europe which I think is largely shaped by experience of being ruled by the Russian Empire, and different from Western Europe. I think economically this area looked different to the rest of Eastern Europe that it was largely annexed by in 1945 - it was far more urban, far more industrialised including with a history of significant manufacturing of luxury goods.

I think there's a wonderful piece on "Central Europe" by Timothy Garton Ash from 1986 (originally for the New York Review of Books but he's done loads of pieces on it and those countries):
https://www.visegradgroup.eu/the-visegrad-book/ash-timothy-garton-does

I disagree with the existence of central europe within the standard dichotomy anyway (go into broader definitions where you're splitting out southern and northern europe too then sure) but the idea that if it exists it includes Ukraine is is just madness. Do people in Ukraine actually try to say this?

It sounds like there's just a disagreement of semantics here though. What I'm calling Eastern Europe you're calling Central Europe whilst you're using Eastern Europe solely for the Russian sphere.

I do think the old iron curtain remains a pretty significant barrier in Europe and it's going to be another decade or two+ before it really withers as income normalises across Europe. Additionally it'll be interesting to see how things look as the post-cold war era becomes longer than the cold war era.

[Jacob]

Central European is a designation for countries that are not in the Western Europe, but that do too well to be punished with an Eastern European designation.

And the list of this countries is as follows:

I dunno. I think you can put Austria on there....

[Jacob]

Sweden and Finland aren't central Europe. There's a north-south dimension to "central" as well.

Agreed. Neither Sweden nor Finland - nor the Baltics IMO - are "Central Europe".

[Sheilbh]

I disagree with the existence of central europe within the standard dichotomy anyway (go into broader definitions where you're splitting out southern and northern europe too then sure) but the idea that if it exists it includes Ukraine is is just madness. Do people in Ukraine actually try to say this?

I'm mainly joking on that point - except for Western Ukraine/Galicia/Lviv.

I'd split out Northern and Southern Europe too - and the Balkans/South-East Europe.

It sounds like there's just a disagreement of semantics here though. What I'm calling Eastern Europe you're calling Central Europe whilst you're using Eastern Europe solely for the Russian sphere.

I think the phrase Russian sphere is far more problematic and objectionable than Central Europe

I'd say Central Europe is basically Germany (or parts of Germany if we are splitting countries), Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and the very west of Ukraine (basically Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk and Zakarpattia oblasts). The Baltics, Belarus, European Russia, the vast majority of Ukraine and Moldova are Eastern Europe.

I do think the old iron curtain remains a pretty significant barrier in Europe and it's going to be another decade or two+ before it really withers as income normalises across Europe. Additionally it'll be interesting to see how things look as the post-cold war era becomes longer than the cold war era.

Maybe. But I don't think it's that big of a division - again if you look at those bits of Western Ukraine I mentioned they have only been ruled from Russia since 1939. It seems weird to me that we take that as definitive period for them and, in my view, that it's not is why they feel more distinct from Kyiv (which is 450 kms away) than Vienna or Prague which is further. The pre-cold war era is far longer for those regions than the cold war.

I think basically for about 4-5 centuries prior to the Cold War the areas I'd see as Central Europe looked to Vienna or Berlin, while the areas in Eastern Europe looked to Saint Petersburg and Moscow. Either because they were directly ruled by the Russian or Austro-Hungarian/Prussia/German empires or, perhaps, because of their own memory of independence (as in Poland who looked to Paris).

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally on public transport a fair bit today and seeing a return of the "wearing a mask, but only over the mouth" people, which I always find the least explicable masking option

[DGuller]

Sheilbh, I'm glad you think so highly of Lviv, but I think you're a touch too complimentary.