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Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

Started by Syt, January 18, 2020, 09:36:09 AM

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Zoupa


DGuller

I think viper has a point.  It's not a good point, and in fact it's a very bad point, but I think he's got it.

Sheilbh

So Ireland is having their Cummings moment, but it is the most Irish political scandal imaginable.

Basically the Oireachtas (Irish Parliament) golf society had a dinner which apparently broke social distancing rules. It's not even noon but, so far:
Minister of Agriculture's resigned
Deputy Chair of the Seanad's resigned
TD and society captains have apologised
5 other Senators have apologised for attending
Ireland's EU Commissioner has said he didn't think any rules were being broken
Supreme Court judge is under pressure to resign
And the Gardai are investigating if this breached the law :lol:

QuoteGolf dinner fallout: Calleary and Buttimer resign, gardaí begin investigation
Taoiseach says Calleary's attendance at event with 80 people was 'an error of judgement'
about 3 hours ago Updated: about 2 hours ago
Pat Leahy, Jack Power, Simon Carswell, Conor Gallagher


Dara Calleary resigned as minister of agriculture on Friday morning. File photograph: Nick Bradshaw/The Irish Times   

A major political crisis has erupted over a dinner held by the Oireachtas golf society that has led to the resignations of the Minister for Agriculture and the Seanad leas-cathaoirleach and also prompted a Garda investigating into the event.

Dara Calleary and Senator Jerry Buttimer, who were among more than 80 people at the dinner at a hotel in Clifden, Co Galway, held to mark the 50th anniversary of the Oireachtas Golf Society, resigned their roles this morning.


Ireland's EU commissioner, Phil Hogan, and Supreme Court Justice and former Attorney General Séamus Wolfe were also in attendance, and have also faced intense criticism and calls to resign.

Mr Hogan said he attended on the understanding that the dinner would comply with Government guidelines.

Sources across Government expressed shock and disappointment at the sprawling controversy and deep concern over its impact on the Government's standing and wider support for its efforts to combat Covid-19.

Garda headquarters confirmed on Friday it is investigating the event on suspicion it breached the Covid-19 regulations.

"As this is an active investigation An Garda Síochána has no further comment," the force said in a statement. Under the Covid-19 regulations it is a criminal offence to organise an event - indoors or outdoors - with a larger number of people than that permitted by the regulations.

In a statement this morning the Taoiseach said Mr Calleary's attendance at the event was "wrong and an error of judgement on his part".

"People all over the country have made very difficult personal sacrifices in their family lives and in their business to comply with Covid regulations. This event should not have gone ahead in the manner it did given the Government decision of last Tuesday."


Senator Jerry Buttimer has resigned from his position as leas cathaoirleach of the Seanad after attending a golf event during Covid-19 restrictions. File photograph: Eric Luke/The Irish Times

Angry and disappointed

In an interview on Mid West Radio after his resignation Mr Calleary acknowledged the damage he had done to front line workers and public health staff and their families.
     
He also said the Taoiseach was both angry and disappointed with him and was "entitled to that anger and disappointment".

Elsewhere, in a tweet posted on Friday morning, Senator Jerry Buttimer confirmed he had resigned from his position as leas cathaoirleach of the Seanad.

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar has also removed the whip from Mr Buttimer and two other Fine Gael Senators who attended the event.

Mr Varadkar said the event "should not have happened".

"I understand how extremely difficult the restrictions have been for people and the enormous sacrifices we have all made. Funerals, christenings, weddings, family holidays and other really important family occasions have been foregone to protect each other and the most vulnerable. As representatives we should lead by example."


He said the senators have "apologised profusely and accept they made a serious error of judgement".

Mr Calleary is the second minister for agriculture to resign from the current administration. His predecessor, Barry Cowen, was sacked in mid-July by Mr Martin after refusing to make a second public statement about a drink-driving ban imposed on him four years ago.

It is understood Mr Calleary first informed the Taoiseach of his attendance at the dinner during a brief phone call when Mr Martin was visiting the flood-hit town of Skibbereen in west Cork on Thursday.


The pair spoke again at length late yesterday evening about the political controversy and agreed to reflect on it overnight. They spoke again early this morning, and Mr Calleary told the Taoiseach he would resign. Sources said the pair agreed it was the appropriate course of action.


Dara Calleary is the second minister for agriculture to resign from the current administration. His predecessor, Barry Cowen (left), was sacked in mid-July. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill/The Irish Times

Fallout

A Fianna Fáil Minister of State said they were "not surprised" at the decision and "disappointed . . . at a minimum" with the Mayo TD, adding the onus was now on Mr Martin to control the fallout – and suggesting that all options, including a reshuffle, should be on the table.

Minister for Education Norma Foley this morning said Mr Calleary had made a "very serious error of judgement", but she said he had "shown leadership" in resigning. "It is a measure of the man he has done that."

The event was attended by a number of current and former members of the Oireachtas. Recently retired RTÉ broadcaster Sean O'Rourke was also in attendance.

Fine Gael senators Jerry Buttimer and John Cummins were also attendees, and both have apologised in statements on Thursday night.


Following Mr Calleary's resignation the Taoiseach will temporarily assume responsibility for the Agriculture and Marine portfolio.

There is set to be an incorporeal Cabinet meeting today to discuss the lockdown in the midlands.

The story about the golf dinner was broken by the Irish Examiner newspaper on Thursday evening.

Regulations

Since late June, indoor gatherings have been restricted to 50 people under the Government's public health controls. Further restrictions announced this week identified only weddings and artistic and cultural events as being allowed to have groups of up to 50.

Moreover, the latest regulations say tables in restaurants should not exceed six people from no more than three households. These updated guidelines came into force on Tuesday.

The event, held in Clifden, Co Galway, is understood to have involved a golf competition followed by a dinner in the Station House Hotel. The event was organised to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Oireachtas Golf Society, whose membership includes TDs, senators, as well as some civil servants and journalists who work in Leinster House and organise regular golf outings.

Wednesday's event included the society's annual meeting, its annual prizes and also included a tribute to the late former TD and MEP Mark Killilea.

Mr Calleary attended the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday that introduced new restrictions on indoor gatherings and social functions.

It is understood that at the dinner following the event, the room was divided into two by a partition, with fewer than 50 people at either side.

The table plan for the event listed 82 people for the dinner with up to 10 people per table, though it is understood that Mr Calleary's table only had six people.

According to one person who attended, the organisers had satisfied themselves, after consulting with the hotel, that they were operating within the official guidelines.

However, sources say that the partition between the two rooms was pulled back for the speeches.

Also you can tell a country that's experienced a strong Catholic education in the phrase "incorporeal Cabinet meeting" :lol:
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

#10173
The golf scandal keeps growing.

Ireland's Commissioner Phil Hogan has been staying in his property in Co Kildare for the summer. For two weeks now residents of Kildare have been told not to leave the county because of outbreaks and local lockdown - needless to say he left to attend the golf meeting, but also appears to have taken other trips. He's attracting a lot of attention because there's been no update since his Twitter statement this morning, in which he didn't apologise:
QuotePhil Hogan
@PhilHoganEU
1) I attended the Oireachtas Golf Society dinner on Wednesday on the clear understanding that the organisers and the hotel concerned had been assured [by the Irish Hotels' Federation] that the arrangements put in place would be in compliance with the government's guidelines.
2) Prior to the event, I had complied fully with the government's quarantine requirements, having been in Ireland since late July.

This also raises other questions because Kildare, Laois and Offaly have all been in local lockdown for the last few weeks so it's not clear who else broke those rules to attend.

The Supreme Court judge has "unreservedly" apologised, at the end of a statement full of reservations - including that he accepted an invitation to the Oireachtas golf outing but he was not aware there would be a dinner :lol:

It doesn't help that one of the other attendees was the chair of Irish Banking Association - which is just not a great look. So far I think Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have removed the whip from Senators in attendance (but not TDs). Based on my sampling of Irish Twitter and the Irish press - people are furious. This reminds me of Cummings a lot - journalists are saying they can't remember a story that's had such a direct response from the public.

What makes it all the more incredible is this event was apparently planned over email over the last few weeks - the announcement lifting lockdown that possibly could have allowed this event to happen were only announced the day before it did. So it's just stunning that no-one in the email chain just said "is this a great idea right now?" I mean I know the 50th anniversary of Oireachtas golf society is not the sort of event you want to let go unmarked but....

Also causing a lot of irritation is the approach Hogan, the Supreme Court judge (and former AG), an MEP and others are basically blaming the Irish Hotels Society for everything. Which is not going down well.

Edit: This is slightly unfair because it's really timing but Fianna Fail took over running the government recently and were, of course, the party in charge of the Celtic Tiger and the collapse and I'm seeing lots of people talking about this in a similar vein of anger at the "corruption" of this. They used to have a big fundraising marquee at the Galway races nicknamed the "Galway Tent" - you'd get all the government, all the property developers, all the bankers hanging out together - according to Fianna Fail nothing ever happened there but a great party.

Just seen one line from call in: "I though [the Galway tent] was the shroud used to bury the Celtic tiger. Clearly, it's pitched up in Clifden" and other people pointing out that Fianna Fail culture never changes.
Let's bomb Russia!

Grey Fox

Quote from: viper37 on August 20, 2020, 03:17:22 PM
Anyway, after a month with mandatory masks, Quebec registered a small dip for a couple days, then it started increasing again, back to the previous weeks' average, around 80-90 cases per day.
https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coronavirus/situation-coronavirus-in-quebec/

Mask ain't doing anything good, except pissing off people and creating problems for many of us, non 110% healthy people.

I see that as evidence that mask are working. We would be 200+ without the mandate.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Admiral Yi

Please explain removing the whip.  Not the same as booting out of party, jah?

Sheilbh

Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2020, 01:14:52 PM
Please explain removing the whip.  Not the same as booting out of party, jah?
Effectively the same as booting out of the party. I think technically you are kicked out the part in Parliament/Dail but may still be a member of the party as an individual so you can go along to your local constituency party meeting etc. So some people may lose the whip but then get it back once tempers have cooled.
Let's bomb Russia!

Syt

https://apnews.com/dab8261c68c93f24c0bfc1876518b3f6

QuoteAP: Catholic Church lobbied for taxpayer funds, got $1.4B

NEW YORK (AP) — The U.S. Roman Catholic Church used a special and unprecedented exemption from federal rules to amass at least $1.4 billion in taxpayer-backed coronavirus aid, with many millions going to dioceses that have paid huge settlements or sought bankruptcy protection because of clergy sexual abuse cover-ups.

The church's haul may have reached -- or even exceeded -- $3.5 billion, making a global religious institution with more than a billion followers among the biggest winners in the U.S. government's pandemic relief efforts, an Associated Press analysis of federal data released this week found.

Houses of worship and faith-based organizations that promote religious beliefs aren't usually eligible for money from the U.S. Small Business Administration. But as the economy plummeted and jobless rates soared, Congress let faith groups and other nonprofits tap into the Paycheck Protection Program, a $659 billion fund created to keep Main Street open and Americans employed.

By aggressively promoting the payroll program and marshaling resources to help affiliates navigate its shifting rules, Catholic dioceses, parishes, schools and other ministries have so far received approval for at least 3,500 forgivable loans, AP found.

The Archdiocese of New York, for example, received 15 loans worth at least $28 million just for its top executive offices. Its iconic St. Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue was approved for at least $1 million.

In Orange County, California, where a sparkling glass cathedral estimated to cost over $70 million recently opened, diocesan officials working at the complex received four loans worth at least $3 million.

And elsewhere, a loan of at least $2 million went to the diocese covering Wheeling-Charleston, West Virginia, where a church investigation revealed last year that then-Bishop Michael Bransfield embezzled funds and made sexual advances toward young priests.

Simply being eligible for low-interest loans was a new opportunity. But the church couldn't have been approved for so many loans -- which the government will forgive if they are used for wages, rent and utilities -- without a second break.

Religious groups persuaded the Trump administration to free them from a rule that typically disqualifies an applicant with more than 500 workers. Without this preferential treatment, many Catholic dioceses would have been ineligible because -- between their head offices, parishes and other affiliates -- their employees exceed the 500-person cap.

"The government grants special dispensation, and that creates a kind of structural favoritism," said Micah Schwartzman, a University of Virginia law professor specializing in constitutional issues and religion who has studied the Paycheck Protection Program. "And that favoritism was worth billions of dollars."

The amount that the church collected, between $1.4 billion and $3.5 billion, is an undercount. The Diocesan Fiscal Management Conference, an organization of Catholic financial officers, surveyed members and reported that about 9,000 Catholic entities received loans. That is nearly three times the number of Catholic recipients the AP could identify.

The AP couldn't find more Catholic beneficiaries because the government's data, released after pressure from Congress and a lawsuit from news outlets including the AP, didn't name recipients of loans under $150,000 -- a category in which many smaller churches would fall. And because the government released only ranges of loan amounts, it wasn't possible to be more precise.

Even without a full accounting, AP's analysis places the Catholic Church among the major beneficiaries in the Paycheck Protection Program, which also has helped companies backed by celebrities, billionaires, state governors and members of Congress.

The program was open to all religious groups, and many took advantage. Evangelical advisers to President Donald Trump, including his White House spiritual czar, Paula White-Cain, also received loans.

___

'TRULY IN NEED'

There is no doubt that state shelter-in-place orders disrupted houses of worship and businesses alike.

Masses were canceled, even during the Holy Week and Easter holidays, depriving parishes of expected revenue and contributing to layoffs in some dioceses. Some families of Catholic school students are struggling to make tuition payments. And the expense of disinfecting classrooms once classes resume will put additional pressure on budgets.

But other problems were self-inflicted. Long before the pandemic, scores of dioceses faced increasing financial pressure because of a dramatic rise in recent clergy sex abuse claims.

The scandals that erupted in 2018 reverberated throughout the world. Pope Francis ordered the former archbishop of Washington, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, to a life of "prayer and penance" following allegations he abused minors and adult seminarians. And a damning grand jury report about abuse in six Pennsylvania dioceses revealed bishops had long covered for predator priests, spurring investigations in more than 20 other states.

As the church again reckoned with its longtime crisis, abuse reports tripled during the year ending June 2019 to a total of nearly 4,500 nationally. Meanwhile, dioceses and religious orders shelled out $282 million that year — up from $106 million just five years earlier. Most of that went to settlements, in addition to legal fees and support for offending clergy.

Loan recipients included about 40 dioceses that have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in the past few years paying victims through compensation funds or bankruptcy proceedings. AP's review found that these dioceses were approved for about $200 million, though the value is likely much higher.

One was the New York Archdiocese. As a successful battle to lift the statute of limitations on the filing of child sexual abuse lawsuits gathered steam, Cardinal Timothy Dolan established a victim compensation fund in 2016. Since then, other dioceses have established similar funds, which offer victims relatively quick settlements while dissuading them from filing lawsuits.

Spokesperson Joseph Zwilling said the archdiocese simply wanted to be "treated equally and fairly under the law." When asked about the waiver from the 500-employee cap that religious organizations received, Zwilling deferred to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

A spokesperson for the bishops' conference acknowledged its officials lobbied for the paycheck program, but said the organization wasn't tracking what dioceses and Catholic agencies received.

"These loans are an essential lifeline to help faith-based organizations to stay afloat and continue serving those in need during this crisis," spokesperson Chieko Noguchi said in a written statement. According to AP's data analysis, the church and all its organizations reported retaining at least 407,900 jobs with the money they were awarded.

Noguchi also wrote the conference felt strongly that "the administration write and implement this emergency relief fairly for all applicants."

Not every Catholic institution sought government loans. The Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy based in Stamford, Connecticut, told AP that even though its parishes experienced a decline in donations, none of the organizations in its five-state territory submitted applications.

Deacon Steve Wisnowski, a financial officer for the eparchy, said pastors and church managers used their rainy-day savings and that parishioners responded generously with donations. As a result, parishes "did not experience a severe financial crisis."

Wisnowski said his superiors understood the program was for "organizations and businesses truly in need of assistance."

___

LOBBYING FOR A BREAK

The law that created the Paycheck Protection Program let nonprofits participate, as long as they abided by SBA's "affiliation rule." The rule typically says that only businesses with fewer than 500 employees, including at all subsidiaries, are eligible.

Lobbying by the church helped religious organizations get an exception.

The Catholic News Service reported that the bishops' conference and several major Catholic nonprofit agencies worked throughout the week of March 30 to ensure that the "unique nature of the entities would not make them ineligible for the program" because of how SBA defines a "small" business. Those conversations came just days after President Trump signed the $2 trillion Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, which included the Paycheck Protection Program.

In addition, federal records show the Los Angeles archdiocese, whose leader heads the bishops' conference, paid $20,000 to lobby the U.S. Senate and House on "eligibility for non-profits" under the CARES Act. The records also show that Catholic Charities USA, a social service arm of the church with member agencies in dioceses across the country, paid another $30,000 to lobby on the act and other issues.

In late April, after thousands of Catholic institutions had secured loans, several hundred Catholic leaders pressed for additional help on a call with President Trump. During the call, Trump underscored the coming presidential election and touted himself as the candidate best aligned with religious conservatives, boasting he was the "best (president) the Catholic church has ever seen," according to Crux, an online publication that covers church-related news.

The lobbying paid off.

Catholic Charities USA and its member agencies were approved for about 110 loans worth between $90 million and $220 million at least, according to the data.

In a statement, Catholic Charities said: "Each organization is a separate legal entity under the auspices of the bishop in the diocese in which the agency is located. CCUSA supports agencies that choose to become members, but does not have any role in their daily operations or governance."

The Los Angeles archdiocese told AP in a survey that reporters sent before the release of federal data that 247 of its 288 parishes -- and all but one of its 232 schools -- received loans. The survey covered more than 180 dioceses and eparchies.

Like most dioceses, Los Angeles wouldn't disclose its total dollar amount. While the federal data doesn't link Catholic recipients to their home dioceses, AP found 37 loans to the archdiocese and its affiliates worth between $9 million and $23 million, including one for its downtown cathedral.

In 2007, the archdiocese paid a record $660 million to settle sex abuse claims from more than 500 victims. Spokespeople for Los Angeles Archbishop Jose M. Gomez did not respond to additional questions about the archdiocese's finances and lobbying.

In program materials, SBA officials said they provided the affiliation waiver to religious groups in deference to their unique organizational structure, and because the public health response to slow the coronavirus' spread disrupted churches just as it did businesses.

A senior official in the U.S. Department of the Treasury, which worked with the SBA to administer the program, acknowledged in a statement the wider availability of loans to religious organizations. "The CARES Act expanded eligibility to include nonprofits in the PPP, and SBA's regulations ensured that no eligible religious nonprofit was excluded from participation due to its beliefs or denomination," the statement said.

Meanwhile, some legal experts say that the special consideration the government gave faith groups in the loan program has further eroded the wall between church and state provided in the First Amendment. With that erosion, religious groups that don't pay taxes have gained more access to public money, said Marci Hamilton, a University of Pennsylvania professor and attorney who has represented clergy abuse victims on constitutional issues during bankruptcy proceedings.

"At this point, the argument is you're anti-religious if in fact you would say the Catholic Church shouldn't be getting government funding," Hamilton said.

___

CASHING IN FAST

After its lobbying blitz, the Catholic Church worked with parishes and schools to access the money.

Many dioceses -- from large ones such as the Archdiocese of Boston to smaller ones such as the Diocese of La Crosse, Wisconsin -- assembled how-to guides to help their affiliates apply. The national Catholic fiscal conference also hosted multiple webinars with legal and financial experts to help coach along local leaders.

Federal data show that the bulk of the church's money was approved during the loan program's first two weeks. That's when demand for the first-come, first-served assistance was so high that the initial $349 billion was quickly exhausted, shutting out many local businesses.

Overall, nearly 500 loans approved to Catholic entities exceeded $1 million each. The AP found that at least eight hit the maximum range of $5 million to $10 million. Many of the listed recipients were the offices of bishops, headquarters of leading religious orders, major churches, schools and chapters of Catholic Charities.

Also among recipients was the Saint Luke Institute. The Catholic treatment center for priests accused of sexual abuse and those suffering from other disorders received a loan ranging from $350,000 to $1 million. Based in Silver Spring, Maryland, the institute has at times been a way station for priests accused of sexual abuse who returned to active ministry only to abuse again.

Perhaps nothing illustrates the church's aggressive pursuit of funds better than four dioceses that sued the federal government to receive loans, even though they entered bankruptcy proceedings due to mounting clergy sex-abuse claims. Small Business Administration rules prohibit loans to applicants in bankruptcy.

The Archdiocese of Santa Fe, New Mexico -- once home to a now-closed and notorious treatment center for predator priests -- prevailed in court, clearing the way for its administrative offices to receive nearly $1 million. It accused the SBA of overreaching by blocking bankruptcy applications when Congress didn't spell that out.

Yet even when a diocese has lost in bankruptcy court, or its case is pending, its affiliated parishes, schools and other organizations remain eligible for loans.

On the U.S. territory of Guam, well over 200 clergy abuse lawsuits led church leaders in the tiny Archdiocese of Agana to seek bankruptcy protection, as they estimated at least $45 million in liabilities. Even so, the archdiocese's parishes, schools and other organizations have received at least $1.7 million as it sues the SBA for approval to get a loan for its headquarters, according to bankruptcy filings.

The U.S. church may have a troubling record on sex abuse, but Bishop Lawrence Persico of Erie, Pennsylvania, pushed back on the idea that dioceses should be excluded from the government's rescue package. Approximately 80 organizations within his diocese received loans worth $10.3 million, the diocese said, with most of the money going to parishes and schools.

Persico pointed out that church entities help feed, clothe and shelter the poor -- and in doing so keep people employed.

"I know some people may react with surprise that government funding helped support faith-based schools, parishes and dioceses," he said. "The separation of church and state does not mean that those motivated by their faith have no place in the public square."

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Tamas

Heard a pretty easy and convincing explanation on the telly for the fairly low number of hospitalisations compared to recent increases in cases: it's mostly young people testing positive, in the 15-39 age bracket. Issue is if they manage to yolo it to the older generations.

Sheilbh

:lol: Golfgate keeps rolling. It now turns out a Dail health and safety official was also attending the party.

Great moment at the press conference with the Health Minister and CMO. Journalist was asking a (valid) question about this, got interrupted by a government advisor and asked "Please keep your questions to the public health measures being announced." Journalist responded "erm....no" and carried on with their question :lol:
Let's bomb Russia!

mongers

Was the US really responsible for 40% of the global daily death toll announced today? :unsure:
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

11B4V

"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

Sheilbh

Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2020, 06:51:05 PM
Was the US really responsible for 40% of the global daily death toll announced today? :unsure:
That doesn't really feel right:
Let's bomb Russia!

viper37

Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2020, 03:19:04 PM
The only place in the world that has used masks is Quebec so I guess we have no choice but to conclude this data is solid evidence.
Asia has seen a resurgence of cases, even after they were all wearing masks.
BC had early success in fighting the virus, and a lot of that was apparently due to the large asian community used to wearing a mask.  Now they're seeing a resurgence of the virus, despite the mask.
Some of your States have a mask mandate, others do not; I've yet to see a reall difference between the two groups in the containment of the epidemic.
Scandinavian countries don't force the mask on everyone and their case numbers are still going down.
France is still struggling with it, particularly in Marseilles (home of the hydoxychloroquine success! ;) ), yet they have the mask mandate, even outside.
I still can't see any correlation between mask mandates in the general pop and a containment of the epidemics.
And that leads me to believe that there are other things more important.

Simply having it mandatory in public transits and other similar close spaces would work just as well, possibly even better.

Quote
If you ever have surgery are you going to request nobody wears a mask since they have no effect according to this conclusive data?
A gun is a very useful tool that could prevent a person from being killed in a dangerous situation.  Should we have mandatory open carry for everyone in a country? :)

Carpenters use skillsaws in their daily work.  They can make all kind of furnitures or nicely shaped stairs with that kind of tool.  But I can't, even when using the top of the line models.

We've been over that before.  It makes a lot of sense in some situation, it does not make sense in a wall to wall approach, everywhere for everyone.  It makes sense in an hospital, as doctors, nurses and other staff are in contact with various microbes&bacterias, and are wearing the mask as a a complement to their PPE.  It's a also a completely sanitized building with entrypoints checks, and cold, warm and hotzones. these people have to switch between various patient's rooms and usually switch all their gear when switching rooms, or zones.  Not following these rules in elderly's home is what put us in trouble before; which just shows that even supposedly trained individuals, without clear direction&surveillance will slip and contaminate themselves and others.  Just imagine in the general public then.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

viper37

Quote from: merithyn on August 20, 2020, 03:35:07 PM
Thankfully, there's a whole big world out there with a whole lot of data that shows that your assumptions are actually wrong. :)
the majority of epidemiologists do not seem to support that view, with actual data.  Nor does the WHO currently.

In fact, I do remember a large study proving your point, but they had to repeat their experiments a number of times and create idealistic conditions for the spread to result in a viable culture of viruses.  The other times, it just didn't work.

I wear a mask to enter a restaurant, but then I remove it to sit down.  If the virus spreads via micro particules of RNA distributed through the ventilation system, then logically, it would spread just as well when I am seated than when I am walking to my place.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.