Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Tamas]

She can release her own test showing she's xx.

Read the bbc article I posted.
It doesn't matter if she's xy.

She has been competing for years, including at the Tokyo Olympics.  The first time anyone questioned her gender is the discredited Russian boxing organization.

Why should she have to prove anything to the idiots who believe the Russian propaganda?

Kind of unrelated, and likely just a non-native language thing, but in such instances shouldn't we be talking about sex not gender? Because it's her sex that got questioned. And, if she decided to start identifying as a man, without taking any testosterone etc. shouldn't she/he be still allowed to compete among women (females) based on the hormone etc. requirements of women's boxing?

Traditionally they were exactly the same thing. The word gender was invented as people didn't want to say sex. Which honestly I can relate to. Feels naughty to be writing it. Wouldn't do do at work.

These days there is officially seen to be a big strict split but imo this leans a bit too much into placating the transphobes and their desires to have gender apartheid with trans women so I tend to stick to the traditional use.

I do believe things will end up back there in decades to come anyway as the science and attitudes develop such that sex as a spectrum becomes more widely recognised amongst lay people and trans people can transition far more fully and flexibility.

But yeah. Huge tangent.

IDK, feels like a useful distinction to me, at least until we reach the point of social advancement that gender as a social thing ceases to exist.  Rare exceptions notwithstanding, birth sex of an individual is usually a clear-cut case and can have for example medical relevance. But that doesn't mean people should be forced to stick with the matching social gender if they are happier not doing so. Thus, separating the two makes a lot of sense to me.

One day, hopefully, you will be able to have behaviour patterns that won't be judged in comparison to the particular social gender you are presenting, and your reproductive organs will have no greater impact on your social life than your hair colour.

[Josquius]

te author=Josquius quote]

IDK, feels like a useful distinction to me, at least until we reach the point of social advancement that gender as a social thing ceases to exist.  Rare exceptions notwithstanding, birth sex of an individual is usually a clear-cut case and can have for example medical relevance. But that doesn't mean people should be forced to stick with the matching social gender if they are happier not doing so. Thus, separating the two makes a lot of sense to me.

One day, hopefully, you will be able to have behaviour patterns that won't be judged in comparison to the particular social gender you are presenting, and your reproductive organs will have no greater impact on your social life than your hair colour.

Sure distinguishing the two makes sense. But I don't get why we have to do it with synonyms. We should just say birth gender/sex and gender/sex.

But Meh. I'm not the academie anglais.

[Gups]

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

Quite. And the failure of the IOC to undertake any testing of any kind for women's boxing demonstrates (as if proof were needed) that it is not a reputable governing sporting body.

[garbon]

Cut the barbaric bloodsport and problem solved.

[crazy canuck]

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

Quite. And the failure of the IOC to undertake any testing of any kind for women's boxing demonstrates (as if proof were needed) that it is not a reputable governing sporting body.

The IOC is not the "governing body" for any sport at the olympics.  The IOC has demanded that women's boxing have a legitimate international governing body prior to the next Olympic Games or it will be out of the games.

[Gups]

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

Quite. And the failure of the IOC to undertake any testing of any kind for women's boxing demonstrates (as if proof were needed) that it is not a reputable governing sporting body.

The IOC is not the "governing body" for any sport at the olympics.  The IOC has demanded that women's boxing have a legitimate international governing body prior to the next Olympic Games or it will be out of the games.

It was the only body setting the rules for boxing at the Olympics. Whether or not that makes it the governing body is no more than semantics. It does mean it had a duty of care to participants which it failed to comply with.

[crazy canuck]

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

Quite. And the failure of the IOC to undertake any testing of any kind for women's boxing demonstrates (as if proof were needed) that it is not a reputable governing sporting body.

The IOC is not the "governing body" for any sport at the olympics.  The IOC has demanded that women's boxing have a legitimate international governing body prior to the next Olympic Games or it will be out of the games.

It was the only body setting the rules for boxing at the Olympics. Whether or not that makes it the governing body is no more than semantics. It does mean it had a duty of care to participants which it failed to comply with.

How do you think there was a failure to comply with a duty of care. Is this just code for a claim that the Algerian boxer was a man?

Those Algerians, notoriously accepting of trans women 

[Gups]

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

Quite. And the failure of the IOC to undertake any testing of any kind for women's boxing demonstrates (as if proof were needed) that it is not a reputable governing sporting body.

The IOC is not the "governing body" for any sport at the olympics.  The IOC has demanded that women's boxing have a legitimate international governing body prior to the next Olympic Games or it will be out of the games.

It was the only body setting the rules for boxing at the Olympics. Whether or not that makes it the governing body is no more than semantics. It does mean it had a duty of care to participants which it failed to comply with.

How do you think there was a failure to comply with a duty of care. Is this just code for a claim that the Algerian boxer was a man?

Those Algerians, notoriously accepting of trans women 

No. I don't know if the boxer had an unfair advantage or not. Nor do you or the IOC. It's accepted that elevated testosterone levels give an unfair advantage in athletics and it must equally be the case in boxing or more so.

Disappointing that instead of engaging in the discussion, you prefer to just shout "Transphobe".

[Norgy]

Her biggest crime is apparently winning an Olympic medal.

[crazy canuck]

Her biggest crime is apparently winning an Olympic medal.

And having fallen victim to Russian testing which people like Gups seem to think is enough to condemn or at least question her.

[Valmy]

No. I don't know if the boxer had an unfair advantage or not. Nor do you or the IOC. It's accepted that elevated testosterone levels give an unfair advantage in athletics and it must equally be the case in boxing or more so.

Disappointing that instead of engaging in the discussion, you prefer to just shout "Transphobe".

I think it is rather unfair that an athlete can be born a girl and train her whole life to compete in an event and then be disqualified for a completely arbitrary reason like naturally occurring hormone levels at the last second. This isn't doping or cheating or anything. Just, you know, either make a world wide requirement that any girl anywhere competing in anything from the age of 3 or whatever has to be tested first or don't do it since that is some grade A bullshit. You cannot pull the rug out from under somebody after a lifetime of training and competing who did nothing wrong Gups.

As if that is the only genetic advantage one could have in athletic competition. I am sure the only difference between the average dude and Michael Phelps is that he just spent a lot of time in the pool, he had no genetic advantages over his competitors at all.

[The Minsky Moment]

1. Does the boxer in question have the XY chromosome. We don't know because the IOC won't test for it and the only test that has been undertaken may be flawed.

2. Does having the XY chromosome give an advantage over women with the XX chromosome. We don't know but could undertake research to find out. The IOC is not interested in doing so.

3. If the answer to 2 is "yes", should women with a XY chromosome be allowed to compete in any event. That's a policy decision but the IOC are not interested in engaging with it and prefer to simply trot out the line that the boxer's passport is conclusive.

4. Are transphobes using this to promote their bigotry. Yes, but entirely irrelevant to the above three questions.

1.  If the BBC article is correct, that would be an irrelevant and unnecessary exercise

2. The BBC article answers that question.  Possession of the XY chromosome in itself does not confer advantage: "For example, females with a DSD known as androgen insensitivity syndrome have XY chromosomes; they produce testosterone; but their bodies aren't equipped to process it. So they don't get any of the benefits from that testosterone, like males do."

The IOC is not a scientific research organization, it should not be in that business.

3. If the doctors in the article are correct, then the question is answered.

4. It's relevant to the extent it indicates a potential motivation to spin the scientific evidence.

[The Minsky Moment]

Cut the barbaric bloodsport and problem solved.

It's perfectly OK for us to be entertained by a woman having her brains beaten out as long as no Y chromosome is on the scene.

The Romans never worried about this stuff. If a Christian said she was a woman, she'd have just as much chance to participate in the women's division of unarmed lion fighting as any natural born woman, XY be damned.

[Valmy]

The Romans never worried about this stuff. If a Christian said she was a woman, she'd have just as much chance to participate in the women's division of unarmed lion fighting as any natural born woman, XY be damned.

How far we have fallen 

[Josquius]

No. I don't know if the boxer had an unfair advantage or not. Nor do you or the IOC. It's accepted that elevated testosterone levels give an unfair advantage in athletics and it must equally be the case in boxing or more so.

Disappointing that instead of engaging in the discussion, you prefer to just shout "Transphobe".

I think it is rather unfair that an athlete can be born a girl and train her whole life to compete in an event and then be disqualified for a completely arbitrary reason like naturally occurring hormone levels at the last second. This isn't doping or cheating or anything. Just, you know, either make a world wide requirement that any girl anywhere competing in anything from the age of 3 or whatever has to be tested first or don't do it since that is some grade A bullshit. You cannot pull the rug out from under somebody after a lifetime of training and competing who did nothing wrong Gups.

As if that is the only genetic advantage one could have in athletic competition. I am sure the only difference between the average dude and Michael Phelps is that he just spent a lot of time in the pool, he had no genetic advantages over his competitors at all.

This is mostly hypothetical anyway as I have seen no proof she even has differing hormone levels.

I suppose though that's the problem with taking a scientific approach to deciding who is a man and a woman and control against doping for the purpose of competition. You have to draw a line somewhere, and there'll always be advantages for those who push this line, and those who fall on the wrong side of it (whether naturally or artificially).
There's no easy answer on this one.