Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Gups]

She can release her own test showing she's xx.

Read the bbc article I posted.
It doesn't matter if she's xy.

I think you need the read the BBC article you posted. The experts quoted all said that it was unclear whether XY gives an advantage, though one or two said is probably does.

"Do people with differences of sex development have an unfair advantage in sport? The short answer is that there is not enough data to reach a definitive conclusion.

"It wouldn't surprise me if some people with a type of DSD had some physical advantage over women," says Prof Alun Williams. Those advantages could include larger muscle mass, as well as bigger and longer bones and larger organs such as lungs and heart.

He says they may also have higher levels of blood haemoglobin that lead to improved oxygen delivery to where it's needed in working muscles.

"Some people with some types of DSDs might have advantages in some or all of those elements, ranging from 0-100%, depending on the type of DSD and its precise genetic cause."

He believes his opinion is representative of the experts in his field, but that more evidence is needed.
When it comes to Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting, we don't have enough information to know if they have a DSD that would need to be regulated.

It also says that although XY doesn't 100% mean you are male, it's a good indication:

"Just looking at the presence of a Y chromosome on its own does not answer the question of whether someone is male or female," says Prof Alun Williams, who researches genetic factors related to sport performance at the Manchester Metropolitan University Institute of Sport.

"It's obviously a very good marker, as most people with a Y chromosome are male...but it's not a perfect indicator."

There are several different questions here which are being conflated

1. Does the boxer in question have the XY chromosome. We don't know because the IOC won't test for it and the only test that has been undertaken may be flawed.

2. Does having the XY chromosome give an advantage over women with the XX chromosome. We don't know but could undertake research to find out. The IOC is not interested in doing so.

3. If the answer to 2 is "yes", should women with a XY chromosome be allowed to compete in any event. That's a policy decision but the IOC are not interested in engaging with it and prefer to simply trot out the line that the boxer's passport is conclusive.

4. Are transphobes using this to promote their bigotry. Yes, but entirely irrelevant to the above three questions.

An alternative approach is to test for testosterone and require suppresants in certain cases. The IAAF require this for athletes competing in their events, including the Olympics. The IOC have agreed to this (and the regulations have been tested and approved at the Court of Arbitration for Sport and the Swiss Supreme Court) but will not institute the same tests for boxing where it is currently the only regulator. This appears inconsistent.

[Valmy]

Pretty soon even a birth certificate will not be enough. You will need to do a DNA test.

Just shows that cis will not save you from these assholes. This is really just about attacking and oppressing anybody who does not perfectly conform to how they want everybody to act and look.

[chipwich]

Chipwich is a troll. Always has been, always will be.

So in the Israel thread Jacob, on behalf of BVS, made a big show about clearing out abuse and vitriol. This apparently includes calling someone who makes an antisemitic lie a racist liar.

I reported this post when it was made, and both BVS and Jacob have since posted here and so know about this post.

Is this Baron's standard of decorum?

[Jacob]

• You ARE a troll chipwich
• Calling people trolls is legitimate, especially when they're trolling.
• You're trolling right now.

[chipwich]

I am not trolling.

[Jacob]

I'll also note that I said I was starting in the Israel-Hamas thread, cracking down on people going immediately to "you're a racist liar" in that thread.

It was not a statement that I'm going to mod to protect everyone's feelings in every single thread across the board - especially not people trying to use moderation as a weapon in their own crappy languish arguments.

I'm more likely to ban people going "Jacob you're being unfair by not acting on this thing that's upsetting me, you're being inconsistent" than whatever the fuck you're complaining about.

[Valmy]

I am not trolling.

I do appreciate that chipwich, the guy who continually and tiresomely accuses everybody else of being a dishonest liar all the time has to defend his own integrity. Kind of refreshing.

[Norgy]

Chipwich (or Ipswich Town, as I prefer), you may call me a racist liar to my face as much as you want.
The argument simply does not bite. 

[Valmy]

Chipwich (or Ipswich Town, as I prefer), you may call me a racist liar to my face as much as you want.
The argument simply does not bite. 

Indeed. It is kind of his thing.

[Jacob]

Okay, I won't be moderating mutually agreed abuse; we'll try to avoid kink-shaming.

[Syt]

I'm unsure why you engage with chipwich. Based on their posts I don't think they have any interest in a good faith discussion.

[Josquius]

She can release her own test showing she's xx.

Read the bbc article I posted.
It doesn't matter if she's xy.

I think you need the read the BBC article you posted. The experts quoted all said that it was unclear whether XY gives an advantage, though one or two said is probably does.

"Do people with differences of sex development have an unfair advantage in sport? The short answer is that there is not enough data to reach a definitive conclusion.

"It wouldn't surprise me if some people with a type of DSD had some physical advantage over women," says Prof Alun Williams. Those advantages could include larger muscle mass, as well as bigger and longer bones and larger organs such as lungs and heart.

He says they may also have higher levels of blood haemoglobin that lead to improved oxygen delivery to where it's needed in working muscles.

"Some people with some types of DSDs might have advantages in some or all of those elements, ranging from 0-100%, depending on the type of DSD and its precise genetic cause."

He believes his opinion is representative of the experts in his field, but that more evidence is needed.
When it comes to Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting, we don't have enough information to know if they have a DSD that would need to be regulated.

It also says that although XY doesn't 100% mean you are male, it's a good indication:

"Just looking at the presence of a Y chromosome on its own does not answer the question of whether someone is male or female," says Prof Alun Williams, who researches genetic factors related to sport performance at the Manchester Metropolitan University Institute of Sport.

"It's obviously a very good marker, as most people with a Y chromosome are male...but it's not a perfect indicator."

There are several different questions here which are being conflated

1. Does the boxer in question have the XY chromosome. We don't know because the IOC won't test for it and the only test that has been undertaken may be flawed.

2. Does having the XY chromosome give an advantage over women with the XX chromosome. We don't know but could undertake research to find out. The IOC is not interested in doing so.

3. If the answer to 2 is "yes", should women with a XY chromosome be allowed to compete in any event. That's a policy decision but the IOC are not interested in engaging with it and prefer to simply trot out the line that the boxer's passport is conclusive.

4. Are transphobes using this to promote their bigotry. Yes, but entirely irrelevant to the above three questions.

An alternative approach is to test for testosterone and require suppresants in certain cases. The IAAF require this for athletes competing in their events, including the Olympics. The IOC have agreed to this (and the regulations have been tested and approved at the Court of Arbitration for Sport and the Swiss Supreme Court) but will not institute the same tests for boxing where it is currently the only regulator. This appears inconsistent.

Lots of "some" in that bit you quoted.
That's why reputable sports governing bodies test for the actual advantages rather than things that usually have a correlation with them.

With caster semenya for example she was perfectly free to compete despite being Xy-it was her heightened testosterone levels that were the problem as these did give an advantage in her chosen event. She would have to switch events or take testosterone blockers to compete.

As the article says most Y chromosomes in intersex women are faulty. They don't do the things they do in men.

Not to mention even where they do naturally do this, we have the capacity to control for them in many circumstances.

[crazy canuck]

She has been competing for years, including at the Tokyo Olympics.  The first time anyone questioned her gender is the discredited Russian boxing organization.

Why should she have to prove anything to the idiots who believe the Russian propaganda?

Kind of unrelated, and likely just a non-native language thing, but in such instances shouldn't we be talking about sex not gender? Because it's her sex that got questioned. And, if she decided to start identifying as a man, without taking any testosterone etc. shouldn't she/he be still allowed to compete among women (females) based on the hormone etc. requirements of women's boxing?

Right you are.  Thanks for correcting me. 

[Norgy]

Okay, I won't be moderating mutually agreed abuse; we'll try to avoid kink-shaming.

If we look back at 20 years of history here, we've had worse. A certain Finn with mouth sugar. The Nazi invasion we suffered for a while. Ipswich calling me a racist liar is really no big deal, at least not for me.

I can't change other people, but I will take a soft approach myself.

[Sheilbh]

If we look back at 20 years of history here, we've had worse. A certain Finn with mouth sugar. The Nazi invasion we suffered for a while. Ipswich calling me a racist liar is really no big deal, at least not for me.

Marty saying "hello" with his customary delicacy and tact.