What percentage of books you own are by white authors?

[grumbler]

Well people from the same parents can be of different races depending upon how the genes mix together. Is it completely beside the point? Well...yes and no. Yes so far as it is a big deal in society the fact that it does not actually correspond to anything important is beside the point. But most people think it is real and I have a hard time seeing race disappear as a social force so long as people have this misconception.

I agree.  What DGuller describes is racism, not race.  Racism is to race as religion is to gods.  Gods and race don't actually exist and don't themselves have any effect.  Belief in them exists and does have enormous impact.

[The Brain]

Oh boy.

[garbon]

Oh boy.

Not surprising though - he has been consistent on his stance.  Of course, it does seem like an irrelevant aside.

[The Brain]

Oh boy.

Not surprising though - he has been consistent on his stance.  Of course, it does seem like an irrelevant aside.

Tell me about it. I've known his stance since 2003 I think.

[grumbler]

Oh boy.

Not surprising though - he has been consistent on his stance.  Of course, it does seem like an irrelevant aside.

I'm not convinced that it is irrelevant, though.  If we behave as though race actually exists, and blame the problems of, say, the "blacks" in America on the fact that they are members of a black race (and construct solutions that depend on them being members of a black race), then, if that black race does not exist, our solutions cannot succeed.

If, on the other hand, we target racism as the problem rather than race, we are trying to counter a belief, not a "fact."

[derspiess]

The "color-blind" point of view used to be considered progressive, but now many are considering it racist.  Could the same be happening to the "race is a social construct" point of view?

[garbon]

The "color-blind" point of view used to be considered progressive, but now many are considering it racist.  Could the same be happening to the "race is a social construct" point of view?

You are basing this on the grumbler n=1?

[garbon]

Oh boy.

Not surprising though - he has been consistent on his stance.  Of course, it does seem like an irrelevant aside.

I'm not convinced that it is irrelevant, though.  If we behave as though race actually exists, and blame the problems of, say, the "blacks" in America on the fact that they are members of a black race (and construct solutions that depend on them being members of a black race), then, if that black race does not exist, our solutions cannot succeed.

If, on the other hand, we target racism as the problem rather than race, we are trying to counter a belief, not a "fact."

But I think people are doing that anyway. I don't think people are noting 'black race' as the problem. The problems are with regards to what happens to people who are seen as being 'black'.  I also think if you try see 'black' as only race and ignore the cultural components that have become codified in that identity (from within as well as without), I think you are missing an important part of the picture.

[grumbler]

But I think people are doing that anyway. I don't think people are noting 'black race' as the problem. The problems are with regards to what happens to people who are seen as being 'black'.  I also think if you try see 'black' as only race and ignore the cultural components that have become codified in that identity (from within as well as without), I think you are missing an important part of the picture.

The cultural, personal identity, and ancestry components are covered by the concept of ethnicity.  What, in your mind, is the difference between race and ethnicity?

Can an individual choose his or her race?  Can an individual choose his or her ethnicity?

[garbon]

But I think people are doing that anyway. I don't think people are noting 'black race' as the problem. The problems are with regards to what happens to people who are seen as being 'black'.  I also think if you try see 'black' as only race and ignore the cultural components that have become codified in that identity (from within as well as without), I think you are missing an important part of the picture.

The cultural, personal identity, and ancestry components are covered by the concept of ethnicity.  What, in your mind, is the difference between race and ethnicity?

Can an individual choose his or her race?  Can an individual choose his or her ethnicity?

Depends on one's school of thought. After all, I'm supposedly able to claim both my white and black heritage but I know that no matter what I may possibly think, I'm going to be put by others into a non-white category (though not likely black as most white people that I've surveyed don't guess black).

I'm not sure how much, in daily usage, people in the US make a big split between ethnicity and race beyond say things like Hispanic white or Italian both as subsets of the white racial category.

[grumbler]

Depends on one's school of thought. After all, I'm supposedly able to claim both my white and black heritage but I know that no matter what I may possibly think, I'm going to be put by others into a non-white category (though not likely black as most white people that I've surveyed don't guess black).

I'm not sure how much, in daily usage, people in the US make a big split between ethnicity and race beyond say things like Hispanic white or Italian both as subsets of the white racial category.

So, Italians are an ethnicity, but Germans are a race?  How does that work?  Are the Japanese also a race, as they claim, or do others get to assign races (and, if so, who)?

[garbon]

Sorry, I thought you were actually interested in a discussion not a Socratic dialogue. My apologies.

[derspiess]

The "color-blind" point of view used to be considered progressive, but now many are considering it racist.  Could the same be happening to the "race is a social construct" point of view?

You are basing this on the grumbler n=1?

No.

[Jacob]

The "color-blind" point of view used to be considered progressive, but now many are considering it racist.  Could the same be happening to the "race is a social construct" point of view?

Possibly, but I don't think so. I think what we're seeing is a shift from "race is a social construct, so we should act like it means nothing" to "race is a social construct, and we should acknowledge and respond to the impact it has."

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Because, you know, he lacked the Constitutional ability to do that. Lincoln was ever the lawyer. And how was it incrementalist? It freed every single slave in the rebel states at the same time without compensation.

well, it was one big increment?