What percentage of books you own are by white authors?

[Razgovory]

That's a bit like saying the United States doesn't exist because it only exists in our heads.  It's true the US does not exist as a real tangible object, but it can take your property, put you in prison, and kill you.

[Oexmelin]

I think we are arguing past each other.

You are arguing against scientific racism. Of course, I agree. The idea that there are clear, biologically rooted "races" is indeed a fraud. As an ideology, it needs to die.

But, for better or for worse (in fact, entirely for worse), the idea of race has been part of the western world for a long time. It has created and structured communities, whose boundaries were violently policed from without (one drop rule, lynching, law, etc.). In fact, it is precisely because scientific racism is bunk, and therefore race a human construct, that it needed to be policed so harshly, and that some people attempted, succesfully, to "pass".

And it is based on that fucked up idea, that communities have bounded over the shared experience, first, of abject debasement that otherwise destitute people were nevertheless not subjected to. i.e., in 18th century Louisiana, nothing should have brought together a Jamaican-born man, a Wolof, an Ibo, a Toucouleur -- other than the fact that masters thought them equally "black". Those identities - Wolof, Ibo, creole, etc - are gone. And then, segregation, and discrimination.

Race is as real as ethnicity or nationality or property. It is a human construct that has a history, produces effects, and enacts strong constraints. Much like ethnicity, or nationality, or property, it has had many definitions, often contradictory, over the years, and has been policed through force, law and community norms.

So, if you were looking for a "positive" definition of race from me, or a racist statement of classification, you will not have it, because I find it as distasteful as you do: this is not what I am arguing about. I am, quite simply, acknowledging that "race" has been an operative category in the United States for 300 years, that it has defined the country, its institutions, created communities, and therefore, created meaning.  I think that the shared experience of "race-based" oppression, in the face of its continuing influence, has created commonality to this day.

[dps]

Is there no such cultural or institutional bias?

Clearly there are cultural biases at work.  I'm not sure about institutional biases, because I'm not sure how you intend the term to be interpreted.  If you mean, does racial discrimination against blacks have the force of law behind it, the answer is, no, not anymore.

If there is such a bias do you think that this bias will go away on its own if we adopt a color-blind point of view? 

Of course it would, if everyone adopted that view.  How would it such a bias perpetuate itself if it's neither established by law nor a part of popular sentiment?

[DGuller]

I never quite understand the argument that being "guilted" through accusations of racism (or Nazism) pushes people in the arms of racists and Nazis. I mean, I understand it from a contrarian point of view, but it doesn't strike me as a good, moral guide for taking political stances.

People pick a camp to be in partly because of the perceived legitimacy of issues their camp advocates.  If you find that your camp is losing its marbles, and that your reasonable views are making you an outcast in that camp, you may be more tempted to look for another camp.

[DGuller]

Race is as real as ethnicity or nationality or property. It is a human construct that has a history, produces effects, and enacts strong constraints. Much like ethnicity, or nationality, or property, it has had many definitions, often contradictory, over the years, and has been policed through force, law and community norms.

So, if you were looking for a "positive" definition of race from me, or a racist statement of classification, you will not have it, because I find it as distasteful as you do: this is not what I am arguing about. I am, quite simply, acknowledging that "race" has been an operative category in the United States for 300 years, that it has defined the country, its institutions, created communities, and therefore, created meaning.  I think that the shared experience of "race-based" oppression, in the face of its continuing influence, has created commonality to this day.

I agree with you.  I find the "race is a fraud" argument to be a typical liberal attempt to define away a problem without doing a single useful thing to address it. 

Call it whatever you want, when you call someone "white" or "black", approximately 100% of Americans will know what you're talking about.  That ultimately is what counts, not pointless semantics about "race".  As long as everyone knows what you're talking about when you say "white" or "black", you will probably have problems when that distinction matters for whatever reason.

[Valmy]

Call it whatever you want, when you call someone "white" or "black", approximately 100% of Americans will know what you're talking about.  That ultimately is what counts, not pointless semantics about "race".  As long as everyone knows what you're talking about when you say "white" or "black", you will probably have problems when that distinction matters for whatever reason.

Sure. That generally works in America...except you know, thousands of "black" people passed for "white" people over the centuries so do people actually know? And of course it really breaks down outside of the US.

Oh and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States

Holding
Court held that residents originating from Syria were considered racially "white", and therefore eligible to become naturalized US citizens

Hey Syrians are white! Did 100% of Americans know that?

It is just an arbitrary thing based on appearance. But just because something is fake and bullshit does not mean it is not incredibly important. It seems to be the most singularly important social issue in the US today and certainly was a giant self-inflicted cross our country has had to bear since birth.

[Valmy]

I just want to point out I asked a simple question. I have lots of books from Latin America and on Latin American. Is Carlos Fuentes white? I honestly have no fucking idea. Nobody has tried to answer me (unless I missed it)

[Jacob]

I just want to point out I asked a simple question. I have lots of books from Latin America and on Latin American. Is Carlos Fuentes white? I honestly have no fucking idea. Nobody has tried to answer me.

Personally I think the utility of the question is less about a binary accounting and more of a point of view to examine to what degree you're exposing yourself to perspectives outside of your immediate social context.

Whether Fuentes (or other Latin American authors in your library) is white or not, it still indicates an area where you're exposing yourself to a different perspective. That's cool.

As I said upthread, my library is pretty white barring a few exceptions. Examining that, I'll perhaps make a bit more of an effort to look for some different perspectives next time I'm looking to buy books. I don't think I'm going to consider changing camps from this particular line of inquiry though.

I do agree that people can sometimes frame it in ways that are driven by anger and/ or the apparent desire to make the listener feel inadequate - and I find that annoying sure - but that's a pretty universal feature these days it seems, across a bunch of topics many of which are entirely unrelated to race or politics.

[DGuller]

Call it whatever you want, when you call someone "white" or "black", approximately 100% of Americans will know what you're talking about.  That ultimately is what counts, not pointless semantics about "race".  As long as everyone knows what you're talking about when you say "white" or "black", you will probably have problems when that distinction matters for whatever reason.

Sure. That generally works in America...except you know, thousands of "black" people passed for "white" people over the centuries so do people actually know? And of course it really breaks down outside of the US.

Oh and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States

Holding
Court held that residents originating from Syria were considered racially "white", and therefore eligible to become naturalized US citizens

Hey Syrians are white! Did 100% of Americans know that?

It is just an arbitrary thing based on appearance. But just because something is fake and bullshit does not mean it is not incredibly important. It seems to be the most singularly important social issue in the US today and certainly was a giant self-inflicted cross our country has had to bear since birth.

Quick thought experiement:

"M'am, think carefully, can you tell us anything about the suspect?"
"He's tall, about 6 feet."
"Okay, anything else?"
"He wore red sneakers and gray hoodie."
"Thank you, that's helpful, anything else?"
"He's white."
"What does that mean?"
"His race, he's a white guy."
"Race is a fake concept.  That doesn't tell me anything.  "

[grumbler]

Race is as real as ethnicity or nationality or property. It is a human construct that has a history, produces effects, and enacts strong constraints.

What impact has race (not racism, mind, but race itself) had?  Every effect, constraint, etc that I can think of is a product of racism, not race.

[Valmy]

Quick thought experiement:

"M'am, think carefully, can you tell us anything about the suspect?"
"He's tall, about 6 feet."
"Okay, anything else?"
"He wore red sneakers and gray hoodie."
"Thank you, that's helpful, anything else?"
"He's white."
"What does that mean?"
"His race, he's a white guy."
"Race is a fake concept.  That doesn't tell me anything.  "

It means he has light skin. But maybe his name is Carlos Fuentes so you don't arrest him because he is Latino.

[Valmy]

Whether Fuentes (or other Latin American authors in your library) is white or not, it still indicates an area where you're exposing yourself to a different perspective. That's cool.

Hey I love people of all varieties and learning about our weird goings on. I just wish I had to time to read anymore

[Oexmelin]

What impact has race (not racism, mind, but race itself) had?  Every effect, constraint, etc that I can think of is a product of racism, not race.

It seems to me that you want to posit racism as the root cause, and therefore its product, race (and everything race would produce), to be  ultimately derived from racism. Why not? It's a legitimate stance, and I am not terribly invested in making them hermetically sealed from one another. Except that I do think that the removal of "root cause" from "product" allows to think things differently. I think, for instance, the inclusion of "race" in US surveys, for instance, allows people to name, quantify, analyze problems, in the US, the ways they can't, in France (where that mention is forbidden from surveys). I think it has allowed for the recognition of a "black culture" in the US, the establishment of collective solidarities between, say, West Africa and the Caribbean. I think it actually fosters collective action against inequalities. When people use, for example "reverse racism", they want to make a political point of delegitimizing a specific action or policy.

As an analog, I think we could certainly posit that "private property" is the product of "inequality", and so therefore, insist that all which property produces is simply the result of "inequality". A number of Marxist would insist, for instance, that removing the "root cause" from our thinking, has allowed us to make property do all sorts of things, including equating liberal democracy with private property. Someone insisting, every time we speak of property, to call it inequality would be seen as making a very specific political point.

Again, I think it is politically and ethically important to periodically remind ourselves of the direct lineage between race and racism, but I think context is key. If that reminder is aimed at, or has the effect of, undermining collective action against discrimination produced by racism, then it's not neutral. Perhaps, in time, "race" will undergo a stronger process of "ethnogenesis", where it will ceased to be tied with something like "phenotype", but we are not there. I think the controversies about Rachel Dolzeal (in the US) or Joseph Boyden (in Canada) have been illuminating about the difficulties to fold one (ethnicity) unto the other (race).

[The Brain]

The "race doesn't exist" thing is just some weirdos being weird. They can be safely ignored.

[Valmy]

The "race doesn't exist" thing is just some weirdos being weird. They can be safely ignored.

If it does exist then I suppose you can tell me what it is.