Would you give up a second Obama term to avoid a Trump presidency?

[Valmy]

Thatcher didn't destroy the British working class; globalization did. It was inevitable.

Hitting the ice berg was inevitable. Screaming "full steam ahead!" instead of making attempts to lessen the damage and save as many people as possible was not.
(West) Germany et al are doing fine.

.

Germany's condition was not the same as Britain's though. And Britain is doing fine as well.

And the alternative being presented was not a difficult and thorough reform trying to save some part of the industry in exchange for modernization. Instead it seemed like just kicking the can down the road.

[The Brain]

Sweden was the 4th largest civilian shipbuilder in the world. In a few decades the industry was wiped out. No sane Swede weeps for the loss of those jobs, and the loss has completely dropped from public discourse. Dreams of returning to inefficient industries are not the way forward.

I would not send Swedish boys to do what Korean boys could do a lot more efficiently for themselves.

[grumbler]

Thatcher didn't destroy the British working class; globalization did. It was inevitable.

Hitting the ice berg was inevitable. Screaming "full steam ahead!" instead of making attempts to lessen the damage and save as many people as possible was not.
(West) Germany et al are doing fine.

So you blame Arthur Scargill for screaming full speed ahead" without taking a vote among the miners?  You place the blame correctly.  Scargill seemed to be indifferent to the fate of his followers if his ego-driven actions did not succeed.

[grumbler]

It is trivial to refute your claim croix, by simply providing some set of examples of where people who are highly critical of Trump are NOT critical of some thing he has done.

However, for the most part, we aren't talking about the things we agree with, we are talking about the things we DO NOT agree with.

For example, I think Mattis as SecDef is a great choice, at least in theory. So right there I've disproven your claim.

I don't think he can hear you over the noise of him nailing himself to that cross.

[Josquius]

Germany's condition was not the same as Britain's though.

More so than people think.
The emergence of London as an overwhelmingly dominant place where the entire economy is  is a rather modern development. Well into the 20th century the economy was more balanced with a combination of northern cities being London's match.

And Britain is doing fine as well.

It's really not. The crappy state of things is what led so many to being willing to believe the brexit fuckwittery.



And consider that the above is just basic gdp per capita, combined with our poor gini coefficient....
Really. Much of Britain is more comparable to eastern europe than western.

And the alternative being presented was not a difficult and thorough reform trying to save some part of the industry in exchange for modernization. Instead it seemed like just kicking the can down the road.

So other politicians at the time failed too. Its hardly news and it isn't the issue here.

[Valmy]

So other politicians at the time failed too. Its hardly news and it isn't the issue here.

It is absolutely the issue. Because ultimately Thatcherism came to power in reaction to the crisis brought about by those failures.

[Josquius]

So other politicians at the time failed too. Its hardly news and it isn't the issue here.

It is absolutely the issue. Because ultimately Thatcherism came to power in reaction to the crisis brought about by those failures.

Yes, ignore the important part and instead go off onto this irrelevancy.
That I say the government of the time was bad says absolutely F.A about whether the opposition at the time would have done a better job. The point is that the government was wrong and should have done something different.

That's an incorrect view of British history BTW. It was poor timing in calling an election that brought Thatcher to power and foreign policy incompetence/good luck on her part and  labour completely losing its way, embracing the anti-nuclear feeling, splitting in two, etc... that kept her there.

[Valmy]

Yes, ignore the important part and instead go off onto this irrelevancy.

You claim that Britain has more in common with Eastern Europe than Western Europe. Seems pretty similar to France and Spain to me. Germany and Northern Italy are much more urban than those countries.

That's an incorrect view of British history BTW. It was poor timing in calling an election that brought Thatcher to power and foreign policy incompetence/good luck on her part and  labour completely losing its way, embracing the anti-nuclear feeling, splitting in two, etc... that kept her there.

So instead they should have subsidized and fought to preserve backwards and inefficient industries? I don't really think those are the policies that led to the blue parts of your map.

[derspiess]

My awesome thread hijacked by talk of coal mining subsidies

[LaCroix]

It is trivial to refute your claim croix, by simply providing some set of examples of where people who are highly critical of Trump are NOT critical of some thing he has done.

However, for the most part, we aren't talking about the things we agree with, we are talking about the things we DO NOT agree with.

For example, I think Mattis as SecDef is a great choice, at least in theory. So right there I've disproven your claim.

well, you think mattis is a great choice so that he can hopefully keep trump at bay. but you're right that I shouldn't have said "literally" re "to where trump can literally do nothing right." beyond that nitpick, you haven't refuted my claim.

(also, aren't you doing now what in the past you've attacked people for doing re: nitpicking an exaggeration?)

[LaCroix]

I don't think he can hear you over the noise of him nailing himself to that cross.

i am the cross

[alfred russel]

He got elected with a minority of the vote, so that is hardly evidence that most of the people in the country are more aligned with the Republicans.

Very true. He won with 46% of the vote or something, versus 48% for Hillary or whatever it was. Most people are not aligned with Trump. But close to half of voters voted for him. Unless you want to make the case that all four candidates were rather radical, I think it is a tough sell to put Trump anywhere other than center right. That is, if we are using the American electorate as a baseline of what constitutes right wing and left wing.

We just came off a solid eight years of a Dem president who left with well over a 50% approval rating. And your little clique has been assuring us that he is a communist, so I guess that means most Americans are commies?

This is so dumb on so many levels I don't know where to begin. I'd never argue he is a communist or even a leftist, and I never have. That would be stupid. I've been on this forum the entire time Obama has been in public life, and I've never argued such a thing.

On this forum, I don't think I even have a clique. I gather most people don't like me. In real life, I think my clique had more Sanders supporters than anyone else, and I only know of one person in my family that voted for trump.

[Berkut]

It is trivial to refute your claim croix, by simply providing some set of examples of where people who are highly critical of Trump are NOT critical of some thing he has done.

However, for the most part, we aren't talking about the things we agree with, we are talking about the things we DO NOT agree with.

For example, I think Mattis as SecDef is a great choice, at least in theory. So right there I've disproven your claim.

well, you think mattis is a great choice so that he can hopefully keep trump at bay.

Thanks for letting me know what I think!

While that is a nice benefit, I think Mattis is a good choice regardless of that, I think he would have been a good choice if Hillary had won, for example.

So you are wrong yet again.

but you're right that I shouldn't have said "literally" re "to where trump can literally do nothing right." beyond that nitpick, you haven't refuted my claim.

I don't think "refute" means what you think it means.

If you say that the problem is that no matter what Trump does, his actions will be seen more negatively than they deserve because (mumblemumblemumbleiwastiredcantanswerwhy) then that would be the case consistently. If we can show that in fact that is not the case, that in fact when he makes decisions that are reasonable they are in fact recognized, then your theory is in fact refuted, whether you stated it with hyperbole or not.

(also, aren't you doing now what in the past you've attacked people for doing re: nitpicking an exaggeration?)

I am not attacking anyone.

[garbon]

It's really not. The crappy state of things is what led so many to being willing to believe the brexit fuckwittery.

Looks like France might be a more of a real comparison but...

Also odd how the Brexit Remain vote map doesn't really map so well to that.

[LaCroix]

if my post had been "to where trump can mostly do nothing right," then your earlier post doesn't work