Sorry, Louise Casey, but Muslim women are held back by discrimination

[Valmy]

There are anti-Muslim left wing people though. Like Bill Maher.

[Jacob]

There are anti-Muslim left wing people though. Like Bill Maher.

Wonderful.

Presuming he gave a damn about misogyny before he went anti-Muslim, I'd find any "hijab = misogyny" statements less hollow and potentially worth engaging with.

[Valmy]

There are anti-Muslim left wing people though. Like Bill Maher.

Wonderful.

Presuming he gave a damn about misogyny before he went anti-Muslim, I'd find any "hijab = misogyny" statements less hollow and potentially worth engaging with.

I think he has been pretty consistent but I am not some huge fan or something. I have not noticed this kind of cross-over generate any kind of discussion, those leftists just get classified as part of the islamophobes and off we go.

I mean the fact is that Islam does consider women to have fewer rights and privileges than men. And anybody practicing Islam, in its traditional form anyway, has to deal with that in some way. I think it is perfectly fair to both have a critique of that element while defending practitioners from discrimination and so forth. That kind of nuance seems pretty rare, at least in public discussions. I am sure many people hold that perspective though.

Personally I just figure the double standard is so obvious that there is really nothing that needs to be said about it. That women are required to wear certain clothes and men are not speaks for itself. The Muslims are not stupid. They know.

Anyway I am not a Muslim and while I have Muslim friends nobody super close to me is a Muslim, at least not yet anyway. So not my business. You will never see me discussing this kind of thing outside of Languish. But I am not some kind of activist. I find it weird when activists who have devoted their lives to this kind of thing seem to act like it is not true or that it is not important when this is not some kind of foreign thing. Islam is part of our culture now.

[viper37]

I'd find any "hijab = misogyny" statements less hollow and potentially worth engaging with.

I honestly never heard this about the hijab.  The full veil, sure.  But simply the hijab?  Except from real racists, no.

[viper37]

That kind of nuance seems pretty rare, at least in public discussions. I am sure many people hold that perspective though.

Funny, I keep hearing it, but the left usually doesn't want to hear it.  They prefer to scream "racist!!!" and lump us all in the same bag with the neo-nazis.  Mind you, they are usually the same who hate every aspect of Christinanity, so it's not like their religious tolerance really extends beyond the radical forms of Islam.

It's much more an alliance of convenience between the hard left and the radical elements within Islam.  They both hate America, capitalism and western liberties they see as threatening to their existence.  So they would have no problem condemning the Catholic church and its practitionners for all the wrongs of a society, including gender inequality, but at the same time, they would defend the practice of having a women covered from head to toe in a hot summer day and walking behind her husband.

Islam is part of our culture now.

Does it mean we have to accept the radicals as much as the moderates?  And when the secular muslims complain of intense pressure by radicals, we:
a) brush them off
b) call them bigot
c) put them on a list with other neo-nazis types
d) all of the above
?

[Jacob]

I don't think that perspective is missing from the public discourse, Valmy.

People have - or should have - the right to engage in whatever religious and cultural practices they desire as long as the basic foundations of a liberal society are respected; i.e. respecting the rights of others. Wearing the hijab falls within those parameters, and there's no particular reason to single that out if you're not singling out the many many equivalent behaviours extant elsewhere in society.

You don't see a lot of people in the US - except dedicated feminists - causing a ruckus about the deeply sexist notions of "a godly marriage" found within the evangelical community, f. ex. Those same feminists are not shy about critiquing the parallel Muslim practices (and those of other groups) where they exists. Within society at large, that sort of arrangement is acceptable as long as there's no coercion involved, whether amongst Christians, Muslims, Jews or others.

Besides, this whole "hijab = symbol of oppression" is a highly political framing... wearing the hijab can be as much a cultural expression of propriety or an individual statement of political or cultural belonging at least unless you apply a feminist analysis. And if you're going to apply a feminist analysis on the hijab, you ought to apply it elsewhere as well or it will ring very hollow.

There is no double standard in consistently not prioritizing a feminist analysis across the board, that's pretty consistent in fact - and most people who are not anti-Muslim and anti-Hijab consistently, at least in my experience, do not apply feminist analysis of clothing beyond a "well, I guess it's her choice" across the board.

If there is any kind of double standard in play it's from the people deciding to use a feminist analysis - that women's clothing choices is dictated by and a reflection of patriarchal social structures - in one single narrow situation (the hijab) but ignoring altogether elsewhere (whether applying it to directly parallel behaviours in the dominant culture, whether it's applying it to other social issues around clothing, or whether it's applying feminist analysis to any other kind of phenomenon like the workplace, family roles, etc etc).

Yes, the hijab can be seen as a symbol and means of patriarchal oppression, absolutely - but if you're going to view it like that you should apply the same analytical methodologyacross the board and accept the consequences. If you do not - and most people don't - then it is not a double standard to not apply it to the hijab either.

[Jacob]

I'd find any "hijab = misogyny" statements less hollow and potentially worth engaging with.

I honestly never heard this about the hijab.  The full veil, sure.  But simply the hijab?  Except from real racists, no.

Try reading the thread:

The truth hurts I guess.

Seems rather unlikely that her problems would just vanish if she stopped donning a hijab, no?

not wearing a piece of clothing that screams mysogyny helps.

[Zoupa]

I'm not sure what your point is garbon. There's discrimination in the UK? That's not news is it? There's discrimination everywhere. We don't even know what field her degree is in. That might a big chunk of her problems.

What a strange follow-up rebuke.

It's not a rebuke and barely a follow up.

So that's what you do now? Just drop into thread, post like 5 words answers playing devil's advocate on EVERY subject and off you go?

I don't get it, but hey, we all use Languish differently I guess. 

[derspiess]

tbh, nothing coming from a rightwinger would seem convincing to you.

Not true at all.

But right wingers adapting leftist talking points out of line with their normal arguments to bolster a right wing position is going to be a hard sell.

Here's the thing, Jake.  You don't have to be a raving feminist in order to disapprove of how women are generally treated in many Islamic cultures.  You can call rightwingers sexists, misogynists, whatever you want and some of us certainly are.  But even the worst among us don't like seeing women treated like that.

I mean, it's like the bizarre criticism of rightwingers who expressed horror and outrage over the Orlando massacre.  Oh, most of them were against gay marriage, so they aren't *really* concerned about gay people getting butchered.  Right? 

[derspiess]

but they have a lot of other opinions about how Islam is terrible.

that is because islam is terrible, just like nazism and communism

Okay, Geert.

He just got convicted.

#martyred

[Jacob]

Here's the thing, Jake.  You don't have to be a raving feminist in order to disapprove of how women are generally treated in many Islamic cultures.  You can call rightwingers sexists, misogynists, whatever you want and some of us certainly are.  But even the worst among us don't like seeing women treated like that.

How are women generally treated in many Islamic cultures and how is that connected to the wearing of hijab?

[CountDeMoney]

What he said next left the libtard SPEECHLESS

'If Islam is so great then why are millions fleeing Islamic countries? Eh? EH?'

OMG I CLICKED
TELL ME MORE

[garbon]

I'm not sure what your point is garbon. There's discrimination in the UK? That's not news is it? There's discrimination everywhere. We don't even know what field her degree is in. That might a big chunk of her problems.

What a strange follow-up rebuke.

It's not a rebuke and barely a follow up.

So that's what you do now? Just drop into thread, post like 5 words answers playing devil's advocate on EVERY subject and off you go?

I don't get it, but hey, we all use Languish differently I guess. 

You show up and get all #French then get upset because I say I have mixed feelings about an editorial?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

but they have a lot of other opinions about how Islam is terrible.

that is because islam is terrible, just like nazism and communism

Yeah, I know that is your position - and that is why I am certain that if the hijab wearing women stop wearing hijab but remain Muslim, you will find other reasons to attack them. Your concern is not about their rights or misogyny, your concern is to attack Islam. Thus your arguments about misogyny ring hollow.

indeed my concern is to attack islam, as it is worthy of unrelenting attack.
As for ringing hollow to you, it's of little interest to me. Given that your type reminds me -in this particular context- of the Iranian leftists cheering on the Ayatollah in 1979.
You're being suckered, and the generations after ours will curse the names of the people that let it happen. And rightfully so.

[grumbler]

indeed my concern is to attack islam, as it is worthy of unrelenting attack.
As for ringing hollow to you, it's of little interest to me. Given that your type reminds me -in this particular context- of the Iranian leftists cheering on the Ayatollah in 1979.
You're being suckered, and the generations after ours will curse the names of the people that let it happen. And rightfully so.

Wow. 

I've seen this sort of hyperbole in history books, and from third-world dictatorships, but I don't think I've encountered quite this open a declaration of bigotry here on Languish before.