What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Valmy]

Is it anti-democratic?  Possibly.  But we have to adapt.  Otherwise, our ennemies will use our weaknesses against us.

Well I am just going to have to disagree with you there. If somebody is so dangerous they should be locked up then by all means keep your eye on them and lock them up if they do something illegal. But just locking them up 'round up the usual suspects' style? Nope.

[grumbler]

they're walking on thin ice, but even if illegal, sometimes, it's worth it.
You know a protest will be violent.  You know the people who organize it.  You don't have direct evidence they will commit a crime, but your instinct and the history of this group tells you what will happen.
You know they aren't from your city, you know they come from another big city, and from the Facebook posts on their group, you know they only dream of setting fire to the city.
You can not be sure the individuals on the bus are the same people who talked about fire and bombing a Synagogue.  Do you wait until they set fire to the city to arrest them?  Do you wait until they set their bomb in one of the city's Synagogue?  Or do you arrest them as soon as they come out of the bus for illegal gathering, organizing a protest without license, etc, etc?

It might not hold in court.  Maybe the city will even have to pay back some money to the protesters for an illegal arrests.  But there was no vandalism, no bombs, no one hurt.

Was it worth it?


During the last G7, there was an impressive security net.  And a "safe space" for protesters.  A few were arrested before the event, planning to bomb some building.
This is what happenned in 2001 when leftist protesters were "free" to protest:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qXh1Wf0LU

The Canadian government was sanctionned by some NGO for restricting freedom of expression in 2018, during the G7 summit.  But there were no violent protesters, this time.  A few people went and protested peacefully, carefully watched by an impressive police display (and out of sight military too).

The violent thugs stayed home.  No vandalism to the city, no burning cars or buildings, no broken windows.

It was worth it.

This was 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLB2um6v3pghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwmnhIH6fS0Antifa action.  Zero condemnation by the mainstream left, btw. But that's another debate.

They tried again later that year.  This time, the police made pre-emptive arrests.  As soon as they got out of the bus, trouble makers were arrested.
No vandalism, no citizen attacked or harassed.

It was worth it.

Is it anti-democratic?  Possibly.  But we have to adapt.  Otherwise, our ennemies will use our weaknesses against us.

So the 2018 G7 summit avoided violence without preemptive arrests, but you advocate preemptive arrests anyway?

Okay.   *backs away slowly*

*turns and runs as fast as possible*

[Razgovory]

Yes.  You are mistaken.  Try again.

my post, except the part where I was mistaken about US citizens surveillance and arrest, is still valid though.

Well, I would treat them as we treat Muslim terrorists.  With a focus on the sources of radicalization and demanding the right-wing community reports signs of militarism and potential terrorism.

[The Minsky Moment]

EU tariffs on wine are not very high.  The EU proposed to eliminate almost all tariffs on goods - including wine - in the TTIP negotiations. Trump suspended those negotiations indefinitely.

[Valmy]

EU tariffs on wine are not very high.  The EU proposed to eliminate almost all tariffs on goods - including wine - in the TTIP negotiations. Trump suspended those negotiations indefinitely.

So he wants them to contribute to NATO but not build an army and reduce tariffs on wine when he himself ended negotiations to reduce tariffs. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[Habbaku]

EU tariffs on wine are not very high.  The EU proposed to eliminate almost all tariffs on goods - including wine - in the TTIP negotiations. Trump suspended those negotiations indefinitely.

Joan, do you know a good resource for finding what tariff levels are on a variety of goods worldwide?

[The Minsky Moment]

Try the WTO

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/tariffs_e/tariff_data_e.htm

[viper37]

So the 2018 G7 summit avoided violence without preemptive arrests, but you advocate preemptive arrests anyway?

Okay.   *backs away slowly*

*turns and runs as fast as possible*

there were extraordinary protective measures, with no access to the delegates, far away from where they met.
Canada was condemned for this.  But there was little to no violence.  Dissuasive measures worked.  But it's a little costly.

In the past, preventive arrests worked too.  You know they're likely to commit a crime, you arrest them.  Simple.

If someone arrives to a protest with gaz masks, baseball bats, body armour, american fists, etc, you know they mean trouble.  Do you wait until they beat a passing Jewish person?  An Arab? An evil capitalist?  A Metallica fan?  Someone with a wolf on her shirt?  Or do you act pre-emptively to stop it?

[viper37]

Well, I would treat them as we treat Muslim terrorists.  With a focus on the sources of radicalization and demanding the right-wing community reports signs of militarism and potential terrorism.

and I would agree with that.  but not beating people up, force sterilizint them, show up at their door steps to intimidate them, harrass them at work, put dead animals in their mailbox, etc, etc.

[Razgovory]

Well, I would treat them as we treat Muslim terrorists.  With a focus on the sources of radicalization and demanding the right-wing community reports signs of militarism and potential terrorism.

and I would agree with that.  but not beating people up, force sterilizint them, show up at their door steps to intimidate them, harrass them at work, put dead animals in their mailbox, etc, etc.

Well, since we can't get the first one, what are we to do?

[grumbler]

there were extraordinary protective measures, with no access to the delegates, far away from where they met.
Canada was condemned for this.  But there was little to no violence.  Dissuasive measures worked.  But it's a little costly.

So proper protective measures short of preemptive arrest works, but let's move against the rule of law anyway?

In the past, preventive arrests worked too.  You know they're likely to commit a crime, you arrest them.  Simple.

You "know they're likely to commit a crime" for every person in your country.  That's a bullshit excuse to abandon western values for those of the Middle east.

If someone arrives to a protest with gaz masks, baseball bats, body armour, american fists, etc, you know they mean trouble.  Do you wait until they beat a passing Jewish person?  An Arab? An evil capitalist?  A Metallica fan?  Someone with a wolf on her shirt?  Or do you act pre-emptively to stop it?

You make it against the law to show up to a protest with "gaz" masks, baseball bats, body armour, american fists, etc, and then arrest them when they violate the law.  you don't just decide to go all Getsapo on them because you don't like their looks.  Always remember that you could be next.

[Eddie Teach]

I take American fists everywhere I go.

[Tonitrus]

Soon, Russia will be worried about a fists gap.

[Eddie Teach]

Russian fists can take more pain, due to alcohol consumption.

[viper37]

Well, since we can't get the first one, what are we to do?

Thoughts and prayers?

I've said it before.  Staging violent counter protests is counter productive, they look like victims.
Let them do their silly parade, armed to the teeth, with all the cameras on them, and stage some multicultural activity/parade the day after in the same city.