The prison food and burkini ban dual thread

[Barrister]

You can't wear a fucking hockey shirt outside your home as an adult!

Them's fighting words, son.

What are you gonna do? Pleat on me?

[garbon]

You can't wear a fucking hockey shirt outside your home as an adult!

Them's fighting words, son.

What are you gonna do? Pleat on me?

I gotta say that seems unlikely.

[Martinus]

I thought about the French burkini controversy a bit more and decided I think what the French authorities are doing is wrong, but not because it is about controlling what women are wearing.

The women wearing the burkas and hijabs very often do so out of social, cultural, religious and economic pressure, so the left which argues against such policing measures by comparing it to police telling women what mini skirts they can wear are missing the point, and ignoring a greater social injustice going on, which concerns treatment and subjugation of women in muslim communities.

That being said, the French measures are akin to penalising victims of domestic abuse for refusing to testify against their abusers - in other words, they try to combat a social ill by targetting the weakest link - the victim. This is why such measures should be opposed, and we should come up with a better solution to address it.

[Valmy]

I thought about the French burkini controversy a bit more and decided I think what the French authorities are doing is wrong, but not because it is about controlling what women are wearing.

The women wearing the burkas and hijabs very often do so out of social, cultural, religious and economic pressure, so the left which argues against such policing measures by comparing it to police telling women what mini skirts they can wear are missing the point, and ignoring a greater social injustice going on, which concerns treatment and subjugation of women in muslim communities.

That being said, the French measures are akin to penalising victims of domestic abuse for refusing to testify against their abusers - in other words, they try to combat a social ill by targetting the weakest link - the victim. This is why such measures should be opposed, and we should come up with a better solution to address it.

The French measures are designed to let people know that un-French things are not to be tolerated. It doesn't have alot to do with trying to preserve secularism or helping women. France has always been about culture and sometimes this is good, it is easy to join the Frog club. But it has always been a double edged sword. But the French pattern is to act like assholes and go through their stages of mourning over the world changing and eventually reach the acceptance stage. Not sure if it will go that way this time though. Though, at least when I was there, the Arab immigrants did a pretty good job integrating. But this is not the 90s anymore.

At least that is my view.

[Martinus]

Perhaps, but I still do think that there is a valid concern over many Muslim women being pressured into wearing these outfits, and at least as far as the Western societies are concerned, such state of affairs should be unacceptable.

But as I said, targetting men forcing women to do so should be the priority.

[LaCroix]

if the main rationale for these laws is the social/cultural pressure men impose on their women, we should sanction little girls playing house

[Valmy]

Perhaps, but I still do think that there is a valid concern over many Muslim women being pressured into wearing these outfits, and at least as far as the Western societies are concerned, such state of affairs should be unacceptable.

But as I said, targetting men forcing women to do so should be the priority.

Look if somebody wants to wear stuff on her head that is cool. My problem with the Hijab is entirely based on the ideology behind wearing it, not wearing it itself. But banning something because of the ideology behind it is anti-free speech and anti-political freedom. Even if that speech and political statement is bullshit.

But I know in Europe fucked up political things can and do get banned. So there is that.

[celedhring]

Banning women from wearing burkas in the beach is not going to make them stand up to their men so they can go to the beach; they will stop going to the beach.

Also, a significant % of those women probably do want to wear this kind of dress, since it's ingrained in their culture. Even though my personal agenda is for them to adopt a more independent world view, I'm not sure it's the place of law enforcement in a liberal state to force this issue. At the end of the day, it's a matter of freedom of expression. If we want cultural integration, that's the job of our educational system, not the police.

[Valmy]

if the main rationale for these laws is the social/cultural pressure men impose on their women, we should sanction little girls playing house

I don't own any women so fortunately I am not guilty of this

But seriously, sure. If girls were being pressured into playing house would it be justifiable to then prevent ANY girls from playing house even if they wanted to?

[Valmy]

Banning women from wearing burkas in the beach is not going to make them stand up to their men so they can go to the beach; they will stop going to the beach.

Also, a significant % of those women probably do want to wear this kind of dress, since it's ingrained in their culture. Even though my personal agenda is for them to adopt a more independent world view, I'm not sure it's the place of law enforcement in a liberal state to force this issue. At the end of the day, it's a matter of freedom of expression. If we want cultural integration, that's the job of our educational system, not the police.

Yep. Besides history shows pretty conclusively that tolerating people gets them to integrate better than giving them shit anyway.

[LaCroix]

if the main rationale for these laws is the social/cultural pressure men impose on their women, we should sanction little girls playing house

I don't own any women so fortunately I am not guilty of this

But seriously, sure. If girls were being pressured into playing house would it be justifiable to then prevent ANY girls from playing house even if they wanted to?

apparently. any girl who wants to play house only does so because of societal pressure--brainwash. so, all little girls should be prevented from playing house. it is in their best interest for legislators to sanction this conduct!

[Martinus]

Banning women from wearing burkas in the beach is not going to make them stand up to their men so they can go to the beach; they will stop going to the beach.

Also, a significant % of those women probably do want to wear this kind of dress, since it's ingrained in their culture. Even though my personal agenda is for them to adopt a more independent world view, I'm not sure it's the place of law enforcement in a liberal state to force this issue. At the end of the day, it's a matter of freedom of expression. If we want cultural integration, that's the job of our educational system, not the police.

I am agreeing with you. I just think that painting this *solely* in the context of personal choice (without acknowledging the fucked up social pressure put on these women by their social, family and religious leaders) is betrayal of Western Enlightenment ideals.

[Martinus]

Yep. Besides history shows pretty conclusively that tolerating people gets them to integrate better than giving them shit anyway.

Only that, with Islam, it hasn't worked so far. And as an empiricist and progressivist, I am not sure that the argument that "well, this has always worked in the past, so why change it" is a very good one, especially when it is clearly not working this time.

[Martinus]

if the main rationale for these laws is the social/cultural pressure men impose on their women, we should sanction little girls playing house

I don't own any women so fortunately I am not guilty of this

But seriously, sure. If girls were being pressured into playing house would it be justifiable to then prevent ANY girls from playing house even if they wanted to?

To both of you, perhaps it's escaped you, but there is a bit of a difference between little girls and adult women.

[Valmy]

I am agreeing with you. I just think that painting this *solely* in the context of personal choice (without acknowledging the fucked up social pressure put on these women by their social, family and religious leaders) is betrayal of Western Enlightenment ideals.

Sure. However it is tricky isn't it? Cultural Christians cannot really go around shitting on Muslim shit. Muslims, or non-Muslims from a cultural Muslim background, have to do it. Just like it is not necessary for us to sit around and point out the fucked up things nutty Jews do, fortunately we have lots of Jews to handle that business. However decrying fundy Christian nuttery is alright. It is just how it is. There are certain things you cannot do outside of the club without it becoming a tribe on tribe type deal, which is not the point.

However think of it like this: if these women can get out and interact with the general public, and the public treats them well, then they will have connections and networks that could empower them if they ever want to make a different choice. If they are isolated in ghettoized ethnic bastions they will lack that option realistically. I think France is being dangerously counter-productive here, even if it is counter-productive in a very French way.