The prison food and burkini ban dual thread

[Valmy]

Maybe, maybe not. Let's see something like data.

Why? I mean I interact with Muslims pretty regularly and based on what they say they wear the Hijab because they are practicing Muslims and Islam commands them to do so. As one might expect. But even if they were being forced to do it at gunpoint I don't think outlawing wearing cloth on heads is how to address that.

I have already talked about US Muslims and Hindus. They are overwhelmingly middle class pros.

[Malthus]

Why? I mean I interact with Muslims pretty regularly and based on what they say they wear the Hijab because they are practicing Muslims and Islam commands them to do so. As one might expect. But even if they were being forced to do it at gunpoint I don't think outlawing wearing cloth on heads is how to address that.

Because the claim keeps getting made, and it makes sense to know whether it has any basis in truth?

But it this way: you and I can agree that it doesn't really matter from a policy perspective. But to others, it matters a lot, and they are justifying their support for policy choices through a particular narrative: 'we are protecting Muslim women from being forced to wear this stuff'. If the claim that women are wearing it because they are forced to is largely false, the support for policies based on that claim ought to be either (a) undermined, if that's the real reason the policy is supported; or (b) to be demonstrated to be based on other factors, such as anti-Muslim prejudice.

Therefore, it makes sense to want to know if it is largely true or false.

[Valmy]

How would you even collect the data? Besides what if you discover that it is true. Then what?

[Malthus]

How would you even collect the data?

The same way you collect data on other touchy subjects, like acceptance of homosexuality - you ask them, via polling.

Besides what if you discover that it is true. Then what?

Well, it would certainly require policy adjustments. No insofar as outlawing the wearing of a head-scarf, but rather, in terms of offering increased services to protect women choosing not to do so - as Martinus suggested.

However, given the women I know who choose to wear a headscarf, anecdotally at least I severely doubt it is likely to be true, at least here.

[Martinus]

Valmy's position: mindboggling. 

[Valmy]

The same way you collect data on other touchy subjects, like acceptance of homosexuality - you ask them, via polling.

That's different. Asking how you feel about something is different than getting an explanation for your motivations. 'Are you only pretending to be straight because if you were gay your family might murder you?' Is a different question than 'do you feel a certain way about homosexuality?' Tricky.

However, given the women I know who choose to wear a headscarf, anecdotally at least I severely doubt it is likely to be true, at least here.

Well what kind of situation would that kind of thing be common? And are those the sort of people you would interact with? I mean I might refuse to believe that Christian families throw out and disown their gay children because such a thing would be outrageously unheard of in the circles I travel in. But hey it obviously is a major problem.

And what percentage of families would this have to be true to be significant?

[Martinus]

Maybe, maybe not. Let's see something like data.

Why? I mean I interact with Muslims pretty regularly and based on what they say they wear the Hijab because they are practicing Muslims and Islam commands them to do so. As one might expect. But even if they were being forced to do it at gunpoint I don't think outlawing wearing cloth on heads is how to address that.

I have already talked about US Muslims and Hindus. They are overwhelmingly middle class pros.

I interact pretty regularly with married couples. They are overwhelmingly middle class pros. Surely, they are highly unlikely to suffer or perpetrate domestic abuse. Ergo: domestic abuse is virtually unheard of among married couples.

That's as convincing as your claim that you are a Christian, Valmy.

[Martinus]

Well what kind of situation would that kind of thing be common? And are those the sort of people you would interact with? I mean I might refuse to believe that Christian families throw out and disown their gay children because such a thing would be outrageously unheard of in the circles I travel in. But hey it obviously is a major problem.

And for this reason there are actual programmes aimed at helping gay kids kicked out of their homes for being gay and it is recognised that this is a different issue than kids just running away from home, and requires special tools to address.

[Valmy]

Valmy's position: mindboggling. 

I just have my doubts that even in situations that was true that many women would admit it even in an anonymous poll. I mean to serious Muslims this is literally a command from God. To not do it would be to deny Allah and his Prophet. So essentially they would be admitting that they are only a Muslim under the threat of violence and I have a hard time believing that many of them feel that way. Not sure we could draw conclusions from it. Maybe a better question would be more theoretical.

'Do you agree women should be punished if they didn't cover up?'

[Valmy]

Maybe, maybe not. Let's see something like data.

Why? I mean I interact with Muslims pretty regularly and based on what they say they wear the Hijab because they are practicing Muslims and Islam commands them to do so. As one might expect. But even if they were being forced to do it at gunpoint I don't think outlawing wearing cloth on heads is how to address that.

I have already talked about US Muslims and Hindus. They are overwhelmingly middle class pros.

I interact pretty regularly with married couples. They are overwhelmingly middle class pros. Surely, they are highly unlikely to suffer or perpetrate domestic abuse. Ergo: domestic abuse is virtually unheard of among married couples.

What is it you think I am trying to convince people of?  Because that was not it. Quite the opposite.

That's as convincing as your claim that you are a Christian, Valmy.

Well now that was uncalled for.

[Valmy]

And for this reason there are actual programmes aimed at helping gay kids kicked out of their homes for being gay and it is recognised that this is a different issue than kids just running away from home, and requires special tools to address.

Indeed.

[Malthus]

That's different. Asking how you feel about something is different than getting an explanation for your motivations. 'Are you only pretending to be straight because if you were gay your family might murder you?' Is a different question than 'do you feel a certain way about homosexuality?' Tricky.

I don't know. You could probably word it in such a way as to avoid being offensive and still obtain useful information. Such as "check all that apply: do you wear a hijab: (a) because it is a religious obligation; (b) for modesty; (c) pride in Muslim heritage; (d) because it would please your community; (e) because it would please your family". That alone would tell you a lot; if it was more heavily weighted towards (a) through (c), for example. Then, if they answer yes to (d) or (e), you could have further questions.

Interestingly, in Canada the trend among the young Muslims is (a) increasing pride in, and identification with, Canada; and (2) increasing wearing of the hijab. Given that young people are *more* likely to wear it than older people, seems likely to me that 'pride in heritage' is more a factor than 'being forced', at least here.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

From the findings:

Though Muslims with less education are more likely to wear the hijab, as are those who have been in Canada for less time, the biggest increase since 2006 has come among young Muslims and those with a post-secondary education.

Strikes me that young Muslim women with a post-secondary education are more likely to wear it as a symbol of religious/ethnic pride than because they were being forced by threats of violence.

Well what kind of situation would that kind of thing be common? And are those the sort of people you would interact with? I mean I might refuse to believe that Christian families throw out and disown their gay children because such a thing would be outrageously unheard of in the circles I travel in. But hey it obviously is a major problem.

And what percentage of families would this have to be true to be significant?

All good questions, which is why data is better than anecdote.

[Sheilbh]

I broadly agree with Malthus.

There's definitely a social and cultural element (but then the same can be said all sorts of behaviour) but I've female, Muslim friends and colleagues who wear the hijab or don't out of choice. Having lived in two of the most Muslim areas of London I'd also say that it's relatively common to see different approaches within families and friendship groups which to me suggests there isn't such a uniform cultural pressure as is being assumed here.

I'd just add that it is very difficult (or extraordinarily expensive) to poll Muslims, certainly in the UK, without some serious caveats.

[Valmy]

Strikes me that young Muslim women with a post-secondary education are more likely to wear it as a symbol of religious/ethnic pride than because they were being forced by threats of violence.

They are also attending religious services more often. Are other religions in Canada MORE religious in the younger generations? Canada is making people less secular and more religious? Huh.

Or maybe not. Are children of Muslim immigrants who do not consider themselves Muslims being counted here? That could skew those sorts of numbers. Maybe the younger generations are more inclined to identify as Muslims as a religion and not as a cultural group. That certainly is true increasingly with Christianity, I think.

[Valmy]

I'd just add that it is very difficult (or extraordinarily expensive) to poll Muslims, certainly in the UK, without some serious caveats.

Well that is the only issue of disagreement I have. I am not sure how one would poll such a thing nor can I imagine a result where it would be a good idea to then ban the Hijab.