Explosions at Zaventem Airport (Brussels airport)/Brussels metro

[Valmy]

The US still gets attacks, but a lot less.   

The problem with the 'alienation' thing is that the overwhelming majority of terrorism victims are other Muslims and other local ethnic and religious minorities. Hardly people that have alienated anybody. They just do not agree with the terrorists ideology and/or methods so are considered enemies.

[derspiess]

Does poverty breed terrorism? I am not so sure. I know the 9/11 guys were from privileged backgrounds were they not? Are the poor over-represented in ISIS or other groups?

Silly Texan.  We all know the cause is global warming.

[Martinus]

No question that what Malthus is saying is right, the issue is that when it comes down to practical application of those ideas, we end up hearing a lot of "that sounds kind of racist" when any reasonable application of security is applied, and "that sounds totally racist!" when discussions inevitably come about on how to actually integrate "moderately" radical Islamic ideas into Western culture.

Stuff like "Yeah, you know, you are going to have to send your daughters to school, and you can't tell them they cannot get married, and Sharia law? Fuck that".

Not to mention that not only for Malthus's ideas to actually work and bring any tangible effect, they would have to be applied consistently for many years to come, but people in Europe have been told for years that these ideas are being implemented, and all they see is bloodshed. Europeans want politicians who will come and implement a solution that will stop their friends and families being killed by Islamic terrorists here and now - Malthus's ideas won't cut it.

[Martinus]

And it seems like the moment one of those discussion start, you get this vocal minority screeching "RACISM!!!!!" if you don't line up with their views.

THAT is the problem.

Actually, I think racism is a bigger problem than screaming about racism.

And people dying in terrorist attacks is a bigger problem than racism.

[Malthus]

The US still gets attacks, but a lot less.   

The problem with the 'alienation' thing is that the overwhelming majority of terrorism victims are other Muslims and other local ethnic and religious minorities. Hardly people that have alienated anybody. They just do not agree with the terrorists ideology and/or methods so are considered enemies.

Well, sure. Different people have different motives. The motives of those actually in the ME are likely to be different from the motives of those living in NA or Europe.

Plus, the targets of violence aren't always the logical ones of those who committed whatever "offence" the radicals are complaining about. The radicals can always simply label the targets as the dupes or cat's paws of the hated enemy - much like how every executed Iranian dissident magically becomes a CIA and/or Israeli agent.

You see the same thing with the communists: their enemies may be international capitalists, but the overwhelming number of their victims were simply local peasants (re-defined in Soviet speak as "Kulacks", and so, class enemies).

[Martinus]

Another difference between left and right:

You, as a Jew, should understand it - the left is into Mercy, the right is into Severity/Justice. There is a time and a place for each (and Torah advocates picking, when appropriate, the middle ground) but when the enemy is slaughtering innocent people only a fool errs on the side of Mercy.

[Malthus]

No question that what Malthus is saying is right, the issue is that when it comes down to practical application of those ideas, we end up hearing a lot of "that sounds kind of racist" when any reasonable application of security is applied, and "that sounds totally racist!" when discussions inevitably come about on how to actually integrate "moderately" radical Islamic ideas into Western culture.

Stuff like "Yeah, you know, you are going to have to send your daughters to school, and you can't tell them they cannot get married, and Sharia law? Fuck that".

Not to mention that not only for Malthus's ideas to actually work and bring any tangible effect, they would have to be applied consistently for many years to come, but people in Europe have been told for years that these ideas are being implemented, and all they see is bloodshed. Europeans want politicians who will come and implement a solution that will stop their friends and families being killed by Islamic terrorists here and now - Malthus's ideas won't cut it.

So you are saying Euros are demanding a ... final solution? 

But seriously, any reasonable solution to these problems is going, by the nature of these problems, to be protracted - left or right. The left leaning solutions require gradual assimilation to Western values, which will take time; the right leaning solutions will require eternal border vigilance and security measures - which will also take time. Neither will absolutely prevent future attacks; I suspect elements of both will be necessary.

[Solmyr]

And it seems like the moment one of those discussion start, you get this vocal minority screeching "RACISM!!!!!" if you don't line up with their views.

THAT is the problem.

Actually, I think racism is a bigger problem than screaming about racism.

And people dying in terrorist attacks is a bigger problem than racism.

And addressing both problems is not mutually exclusive.

[Martinus]

All I am saying that the left/liberal/mainstream have completely dropped the ball on this issue and people are no longer buying the multi-kulti spiel (irrespective of how (in)correct it is).

So, when I ask what is the mainstream/liberal/leftist proposal for the people, to counter the right wing/extreme solutions, "more multi-kulti" is not going to cut it.

[Malthus]

Another difference between left and right:

You, as a Jew, should understand it - the left is into Mercy, the right is into Severity/Justice. There is a time and a place for each (and Torah advocates picking, when appropriate, the middle ground) but when the enemy is slaughtering innocent people only a fool errs on the side of Mercy.

The problem lies in identifying the enemy.

Sure, no mercy for terrorists, I can get behind that. But the real issue is what to do with the vast majority of Muslim people, who are not terrorists. Justice demands that they not be treated as enemies in a pre-emptory manner.

[Martinus]

But then you have a mainstream leftist/liberal politician saying something like this:



And then wonder why people support Trump. It's bullshit what she said - sure not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists operating in the West today are Muslim - and refusing to acknowledge that fact means more vote for right wingers.

[Martinus]

Another difference between left and right:

You, as a Jew, should understand it - the left is into Mercy, the right is into Severity/Justice. There is a time and a place for each (and Torah advocates picking, when appropriate, the middle ground) but when the enemy is slaughtering innocent people only a fool errs on the side of Mercy.

The problem lies in identifying the enemy.

Sure, no mercy for terrorists, I can get behind that. But the real issue is what to do with the vast majority of Muslim people, who are not terrorists. Justice demands that they not be treated as enemies in a pre-emptory manner.

It depends what they do. Those who organise a protest in the Muslim district of Brussels after the arrest of the Paris attacks mastermind - or those who throw stones at police cars and ambulances during the same arrest - should be treated as enemies, and with no mercy. Do you disagree?

[Solmyr]

And then wonder why people support Trump. It's bullshit what she said - sure not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists operating in the West today are Muslim - and refusing to acknowledge that fact means more vote for right wingers.

I dunno, sometimes it feels that there are more members of Neo-Nazi groups (whom I'd classify as terrorists, even though apparently only brown people can be terrorists) operating in the West than there are Islamist terrorists. Have you done a count?

[Martinus]

And then wonder why people support Trump. It's bullshit what she said - sure not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists operating in the West today are Muslim - and refusing to acknowledge that fact means more vote for right wingers.

I dunno, sometimes it feels that there are more members of Neo-Nazi groups (whom I'd classify as terrorists, even though apparently only brown people can be terrorists) operating in the West than there are Islamist terrorists. Have you done a count?

Yes, in terms of body count of their victims it is pretty obvious which one is more dangerous.

[Eddie Teach]

I dunno, sometimes it feels that there are more members of Neo-Nazi groups (whom I'd classify as terrorists, even though apparently only brown people can be terrorists) operating in the West than there are Islamist terrorists. Have you done a count?

I'd say you should be counting the number/severity of incidents rather than group membership.