Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Valmy]

What do you expect they see as a solution for their grievances next when the EU is gone as a scapegoat...?

Break up the UK. Form smaller and smaller and more provincial governments until they are truly powerless to address any of the issues. Then they can blame arrogant foreigners.

[Agelastus]

And it wasn't the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, it was the eurozone countries, of which the UK was not a member.

The EFSF may have contributed the Lion's share, but the EFSM was involved as well; not to mention the bilateral loans made by various EU members as part of the bailout.

So yes, it was the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, not just the Eurozone countries.

[Sheilbh]

And the migration thing is bizarre thing to whine about if you are going to go on about how they should not interfere with democratically elected leaders nor impose things. It was not like the EU countries were all trying to enact pro-migrant policies and the EU stopped them. Then what you said would make sense.

I meant Berlusconi and Papandreou respectively replaced by an EU Commissioner and an ECb central banker. After his time in office Monti actually tried to lead a political party and got 10% of the vote.

The migration thing is separate. I don't like the anti-democratic nature, the economic policy or the migration policy.

"Not in my name." That's naive Facebook policy-making. You have just given up on trying to influence things for the better and prefer to pretend that the world outside does not exist. And if you think this will have a positive outcome on xenophobia it makes me wonder if you read what the most pressing issue for the Leave voters was. They were motivated by xenophobia. Brexit will not fix the grievances of those Leave voters. Why should it then fix their xenophobia? Those pesky foreigners will still be there and there still be more coming even after Brexit. What do you expect they see as a solution for their grievances next when the EU is gone as a scapegoat...?

I think it'll have a positive outcome on xenophobia because I think first of all there are the 48% and secondly this is, in my view, a moment of English nationalism which is going to lead to a definition of Englishness. I've always thought our biggest constitutional issue was England and the lack of identity in England which meant middle-class English people like me sucked the oxygen out of a shared British identity. Ithink - and hope - that the end outcome will be a civil English nationalism that encompasses all backgrounds and ethnicities like the kind that has emerged in Scotland and Ireland (I don't really know anything about Wales ).

I think the polls showing 85% of people support EU citizens already here having the right to remain permanently and with all of their rights once we leave is encouraging. I think there is a bedrock of decency that will win but there'll be a fight.

Shelf, we've discussed Greece et al ad nauseum et cetera ipso facto quod erat demonstratum before, and there's no need to rehash the whole thing, but you're happiness in using the word "impose" shows you're unwilling to analyze you're own assumptions.

Having thought about them, I think they're right!

But also see Moscovici this week saying that the response to any economic turbulence following Brexit should be to stick to the pact - ie. pro-cyclical policies. He's a French Socialist. Meanwhile Osborne, a Tory, has said we'll have to give up our deficit targets and a couple of the Tory leadership candidates have said that, given that gilts are so low and we're looking to hit slowing growth or a recession, we should borrow £100 billion for infrastructure spending.

[Sheilbh]

I don't see what she is optimistic about though. Doesn't seem like any of the things she notes are likely to change because of this.

Public engagement and people getting political in an apathetic country. In answer to the 'this won't solve any of the grievances' line which is true (on its own) is those grievances have a better chance of being solved if the people feeling them are engaged in and trying to change our politics. There's a reason every election is really a competition to see who can stuff most gold into the mouths of the elderly.

Break up the UK. Form smaller and smaller and more provincial governments until they are truly powerless to address any of the issues. Then they can blame arrogant foreigners.

I don't want the UK to break up but we really, really do need a proper federal system - on that, incidentally, Scotland has come out in favour of accepting more refugees.

And it wasn't the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, it was the eurozone countries, of which the UK was not a member.

With the exception of Ireland we, rightly, contributed to that bailout.

[Admiral Yi]

The EFSF may have contributed the Lion's share, but the EFSM was involved as well; not to mention the bilateral loans made by various EU members as part of the bailout.

So yes, it was the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, not just the Eurozone countries.

I don't know what these acronyms mean.

Did the UK, a member of the EU, contribute to the bailouts?

[PJL]

Thing is infrastructure spending isn't a socialist idea either, both main parties have used this in the past, so why it's been such a no-no recently is beyond me.

[garbon]

I don't see what she is optimistic about though. Doesn't seem like any of the things she notes are likely to change because of this.

Public engagement and people getting political in an apathetic country. In answer to the 'this won't solve any of the grievances' line which is true (on its own) is those grievances have a better chance of being solved if the people feeling them are engaged in and trying to change our politics. There's a reason every election is really a competition to see who can stuff most gold into the mouths of the elderly.

I don't see why there is a better chance of issues being solved. Looks like it could just spur on more protest votes. I don't think that's going to actually lead to politicians figuring out how to solve grievances and actually implement solutions.

[garbon]

What do you expect they see as a solution for their grievances next when the EU is gone as a scapegoat...?

Break up the UK. Form smaller and smaller and more provincial governments until they are truly powerless to address any of the issues. Then they can blame arrogant foreigners.

Islington Independence! Then Corbyn and Johnson and duke it out for control of the borough!

[Agelastus]

The EFSF may have contributed the Lion's share, but the EFSM was involved as well; not to mention the bilateral loans made by various EU members as part of the bailout.

So yes, it was the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, not just the Eurozone countries.

I don't know what these acronyms mean.

Did the UK, a member of the EU, contribute to the bailouts?

Yes, both as a member of the EU and via a bilateral loan to Ireland.

[Sheilbh]

Shelf, we've discussed Greece et al ad nauseum et cetera ipso facto quod erat demonstratum before, and there's no need to rehash the whole thing, but you're happiness in using the word "impose" shows you're unwilling to analyze you're own assumptions.

Also on this we have but I think you underestimate the impact it had on lots of people's opinions in other bits of Europe. As I say in the UK for the last 25 years the EU has been seen as a left-wing project. I mentioned before that I don't know anyone who voted Leave because I live in a London bubble but, which also reflects that London bubble, the two big issues that people mentioned as causing reservations about the EU were Greece and refugees.

It won't have swayed a huge number of votes but I do think it matters in that Labour turnout of only 65% supporting Remain and we don't have statistics of the vote by faith but I imagine the refugee crisis and Fico etc will have affected the British Muslim vote too. As I mentioned earlier the Black British vote went 75% for Remain while the British Asian vote was only about 60% I wonder if part of that was the Muslim vote who may well have noted the European response to Muslim refugees (as well as our own).

[Valmy]

The migration thing is separate. I don't like the anti-democratic nature, the economic policy or the migration policy.

So you are demanding the EU be an impossible thing? That is fair.

[Sheilbh]

Thing is infrastructure spending isn't a socialist idea either, both main parties have used this in the past, so why it's been such a no-no recently is beyond me.

I know. It's a resolution picked into a dogma.

[PJL]

You know what, given recent events, if the EU slapped a uniform 10% import tariff from goods in the UK because of Brexit, we'd be no worse off than where we were before vis a vis the EU, and still 10% better off with the ROTW.

Unexpected currency devaluation FTW!

[Sheilbh]

The migration thing is separate. I don't like the anti-democratic nature, the economic policy or the migration policy.

So you are demanding the EU be an impossible thing? That is fair.

What?

[garbon]

while the British Asian vote was only about 60% I wonder if part of that was the Muslim vote who may well have noted the European response to Muslim refugees (as well as our own).

So they picked a door that will likely make things worse for them?

After all, it allows Europe to go further down that path if it loses internal voices that might criticize its policies - as well as like Zanza noted, it has emboldened pernicious elements within the UK who might also favour similar policies.