Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Valmy]

The migration thing is separate. I don't like the anti-democratic nature, the economic policy or the migration policy.

So you are demanding the EU be an impossible thing? That is fair.

What?

I just explained how the migration policy was dictated by the democratic will of the member states. You demand the EU overturn this AND be more Democratic. That is impossible.

[PJL]

I actually have no problems with Corbynomics, it's just the other aspects of their current LP proposals that are iffy

[Zanza]

I meant Berlusconi and Papandreou respectively replaced by an EU Commissioner and an ECb central banker. After his time in office Monti actually tried to lead a political party and got 10% of the vote.

Will you not have your second unelected prime minister in less than ten years soon? 

I think it'll have a positive outcome on xenophobia because I think first of all there are the 48% and secondly this is, in my view, a moment of English nationalism which is going to lead to a definition of Englishness. I've always thought our biggest constitutional issue was England and the lack of identity in England which meant middle-class English people like me sucked the oxygen out of a shared British identity. Ithink - and hope - that the end outcome will be a civil English nationalism that encompasses all backgrounds and ethnicities like the kind that has emerged in Scotland and Ireland (I don't really know anything about Wales ).

English nationalism as cure for xenophobia... ok. I think you lost me.
If you need a definition of Englishness, I am sure your Irish or Scottish brethen can provide one.

Public engagement and people getting political in an apathetic country. In answer to the 'this won't solve any of the grievances' line which is true (on its own) is those grievances have a better chance of being solved if the people feeling them are engaged in and trying to change our politics.

And as every analysis I read showed they turned out to make their xenophobia heard. Immigration was by far the biggest topic that motivated them. Ending apathy to show those pesky foreigners doesn't seem a particular positive sign to me, but your mileage may vary.

[Sheilbh]

I actually have no problems with Corbynomics, it's just the other aspects of their current LP proposals that are iffy

Same. If it wasn't for Ireland and foreign policy and competence and closeness to entryist groups etc I'd have no issue with him

[Admiral Yi]

Also on this we have but I think you underestimate the impact it had on lots of people's opinions in other bits of Europe. As I say in the UK for the last 25 years the EU has been seen as a left-wing project. I mentioned before that I don't know anyone who voted Leave because I live in a London bubble but, which also reflects that London bubble, the two big issues that people mentioned as causing reservations about the EU were Greece and refugees.

It won't have swayed a huge number of votes but I do think it matters in that Labour turnout of only 65% supporting Remain and we don't have statistics of the vote by faith but I imagine the refugee crisis and Fico etc will have affected the British Muslim vote too. As I mentioned earlier the Black British vote went 75% for Remain while the British Asian vote was only about 60% I wonder if part of that was the Muslim vote who may well have noted the European response to Muslim refugees (as well as our own).

As has been amply demonstrated during the Brexit debate, people's opinions are often based on codswallop.  There is no dial that Merkel can turn to effortlessly give Greece higher incomes, better services, lower unemployment, and higher growth.

[Zanza]

As I say in the UK for the last 25 years the EU has been seen as a left-wing project.

Now you just don't make any sense anymore. I thought the EU is seen as this dogmatic neoliberal, austerity regime that forces out democratically elected governments? How is that left-wing? Unless left-wing goes all the way to Stalin.

[Agelastus]

I meant Berlusconi and Papandreou respectively replaced by an EU Commissioner and an ECb central banker. After his time in office Monti actually tried to lead a political party and got 10% of the vote.

Will you not have your second unelected prime minister in less than ten years soon? 

By making this comment you're proving yourself to be exactly as ignorant of the normal workings of the British political system as the average Euro MP apparently is. After 43 years of EU and before that EEC membership on our part.

Unless, of course, you were making a joke.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes, both as a member of the EU and via a bilateral loan to Ireland.

I was unaware of the EU loans. 

Any idea how much the UK is owed?

[Sheilbh]

Will you not have your second unelected prime minister in less than ten years soon? 

They are the leaders of the largest blocs in Parliament all of whom have a mandate (and both were pre-announced Cameron and Blair both said they wouldn't serve another full term before the elections). That's rather different than having someone who's never held elected office parachuted in.

English nationalism as cure for xenophobia... ok. I think you lost me.

I don't think nationalism is necessarily a bad thing. I actually think the lack of a 'national' identity for England has been a problem for some time and has led to the festering disenchantment of many people. I think we now actually have to have the fight of what Englishness is and what England is about - I think this could be the biggest issue of the next several years, especially if Scotland leaves. For myself I support and hope that an open, civic nationalism of the type that's emerged in Scotland and Ireland will win.

And as every analysis I read showed they turned out to make their xenophobia heard. Immigration was by far the biggest topic that motivated them. Ending apathy to show those pesky foreigners doesn't seem a particular positive sign to me, but your mileage may vary.

I always think it's good if people vote but especially if it's people who normally don't and who feel they're being left behind. If they don't vote then they will be ignored. I don't agree with them on immigration but I think that's an argument that my side can win. What matters is that now we have to listen. A protest vote or populism isn't a bad thing it's a symptom and not a cause of problems.

[Zanza]

I meant Berlusconi and Papandreou respectively replaced by an EU Commissioner and an ECb central banker. After his time in office Monti actually tried to lead a political party and got 10% of the vote.

Will you not have your second unelected prime minister in less than ten years soon? 

By making this comment you're proving yourself to be exactly as ignorant of the normal workings of the British political system as the average Euro MP apparently is. After 43 years of EU and before that EEC membership on our part.

Unless, of course, you were making a joke.

Reading it again, it's clear that I didn't really make the point I wanted to make. Just like the British, Italy and Greece both have had changes of government without parliamentarian elections in the past and Greece had a history of unelected technocrats ruling it before in the late 1980s.

[Sheilbh]

As I say in the UK for the last 25 years the EU has been seen as a left-wing project.

Now you just don't make any sense anymore. I thought the EU is seen as this dogmatic neoliberal, austerity regime that forces out democratically elected governments? How is that left-wing? Unless left-wing goes all the way to Stalin.

UK views on the EU from 1945 to the mid-80s were that the left was generally most opposed. It's a bosses club, it's undemocratic, it may boost trade and capital but does nothing for workers. At the same time from the mid-60s to Maastricht it was supported by the right - remember Maggie's multi-flag jumper - because it boosted trade and capital and we were in relative decline while Europe was powering ahead, we may have mistimed that because we joined in 1973. And the centrists: the Liberals were always pro-European and the SDP were strongly pro-European (the Commission that came up with the idea of monetary union was headed by Roy Jenkins).

After Maastricht the right went off Europe in general, in a large way. Maggie disparaged it in her memoirs, Factortame happened, they had the 'bastard' Maastricht rebels and it tore the Tory party apart throughout the nineties. In the end the Eurosceptics won. Cameron was probably the most Eurosceptic PM we've ever had but even that wasn't enough.

From the mid-80s onwards the EU became seen as more of a left-wing cause. It was a key part of Mandelson's belief in the need to 'modernise' Labour was that progressive politics were pro-European. Tony Blair was an enthusiastic European who addressed the European Parliament in French, who wanted to join the Euro etc. Gordon Brown wanted us to join the Social Chapter that the Tories had opted out of. There was a left-wing element that continued to be sceptic (eg. the founder of UKIP who left once Farage took over because he's 'racist', Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn) but, until Greece and the global financial crisis, that element was very much a fringe. In the last 5-6 years I think that's changed.

[Zanza]

I don't think nationalism is necessarily a bad thing. I actually think the lack of a 'national' identity for England has been a problem for some time and has led to the festering disenchantment of many people. I think we now actually have to have the fight of what Englishness is and what England is about - I think this could be the biggest issue of the next several years, especially if Scotland leaves. For myself I support and hope that an open, civic nationalism of the type that's emerged in Scotland and Ireland will win.

Heh, when I think of Irish nationalism "open" and "civic" are not the words that come to my mind. I think of the IRA. But then I must admit I don't know a lot about Ireland. Maybe they have this positive open, civic nationalism that somehow contributes to curing xenophobia. 

I always think it's good if people vote but especially if it's people who normally don't and who feel they're being left behind. If they don't vote then they will be ignored. I don't agree with them on immigration but I think that's an argument that my side can win. What matters is that now we have to listen. A protest vote or populism isn't a bad thing it's a symptom and not a cause of problems.

The British just voted for their probably biggest changed in postwar foreign policy, triggered a considerable constitutional crisis over something that is not the cause of the problem and for a policy that will not cure the symptoms or the disease. Your side winning sure looks like a gigantic loss from this side of the Channel. 

[Sheilbh]

Heh, when I think of Irish nationalism "open" and "civic" are not the words that come to my mind. I think of the IRA. But then I must admit I don't know a lot about Ireland. Maybe they have this positive open, civic nationalism that somehow contributes to curing xenophobia. 

Fair. I think of Humza Yousaf of the SNP getting sworn in in English and Urdu wearing a kilt. Or the last election's BNP poster of a bunch of black guys in a pub wearing kilts, quoting the Scottish SNP minister who'd said 'we welcome asylum seekers and refugees' with the tagline 'Keep Scotland Scottish'. The SNP embraced it.

The British just voted for their probably biggest changed in postwar foreign policy, triggered a considerable constitutional crisis over something that is not the cause of the problem and for a policy that will not cure the symptoms or the disease. Your side winning sure looks like a gigantic loss from this side of the Channel. 

What's done is done, but now the fight's really on to define the sort of country we become. I think everything's to play for which is an exciting opportunity.

[Zanza]

UK views on the EU from 1945 to the mid-80s were that the left was generally most opposed. It's a bosses club, it's undemocratic, it may boost trade and capital but does nothing for workers. At the same time from the mid-60s to Maastricht it was supported by the right - remember Maggie's multi-flag jumper - because it boosted trade and capital and we were in relative decline while Europe was powering ahead, we may have mistimed that because we joined in 1973. And the centrists: the Liberals were always pro-European and the SDP were strongly pro-European (the Commission that came up with the idea of monetary union was headed by Roy Jenkins).

After Maastricht the right went off Europe in general, in a large way. Maggie disparaged it in her memoirs, Factortame happened, they had the 'bastard' Maastricht rebels and it tore the Tory party apart throughout the nineties. In the end the Eurosceptics won. Cameron was probably the most Eurosceptic PM we've ever had but even that wasn't enough.

From the mid-80s onwards the EU became seen as more of a left-wing cause. It was a key part of Mandelson's belief in the need to 'modernise' Labour was that progressive politics were pro-European. Tony Blair was an enthusiastic European who addressed the European Parliament in French, who wanted to join the Euro etc. Gordon Brown wanted us to join the Social Chapter that the Tories had opted out of. There was a left-wing element that continued to be sceptic (eg. the founder of UKIP who left once Farage took over because he's 'racist', Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn) but, until Greece and the global financial crisis, that element was very much a fringe. In the last 5-6 years I think that's changed.

Interesting. Especially when you then consider that neither the reasons you state for the right scepticism of the EU (Maastricht) nor those you list for the left scepticism of the EU (Greece, reaction to financial crisis) where the main factor that motivated the people in the end. I guess that shows the disconnect of the political elites and the masses that you mentioned before quite clearly.

[Zanza]

The British just voted for their probably biggest changed in postwar foreign policy, triggered a considerable constitutional crisis over something that is not the cause of the problem and for a policy that will not cure the symptoms or the disease. Your side winning sure looks like a gigantic loss from this side of the Channel. 

What's done is done, but now the fight's really on to define the sort of country we become. I think everything's to play for which is an exciting opportunity.

May you live in interesting times?!