Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Zanza]

[Sheilbh]

I voted Remain but agree with every word of this excellent non, je ne Bregrette rien piece by a young FT journalist:

July 6, 2016 6:07 pm
I am young and I voted Leave — and there are no regrets
Mehreen Khan

I should not have voted for Brexit. As a twentysomething London-dwelling grandchild of immigrants, polling and prejudice would suggest I am of the constituency that should most favour continued UK membership of the EU.

My position as an ardent Outer was forged in the global financial crisis. Given the choice, I could not bring myself to support membership of supranational bodies that have imposed the harshest punishment on the weakest members in pursuit of a misguided economic dogma.

A month before the vote I found myself in Brussels awaiting a decision on Greece's economic future. At 3am, after almost 12 hours, four non-Greek technocrats emerged from another round of botched talks over whether finally to provide Athens with debt relief. This wasn't about the needs of people or the economy but rather an extension of the institutional squabbling that means Greece is in recession six years after the debt crisis began. The episode typifies how the EU does politics: sheltered from its populace, shrouded by obfuscation and ultimately dodging decisions even when the livelihoods and prosperity of millions are at stake.

Closer to home, there are plenty of other reasons to vote Out. Many in Britain say the Brexit vote should be nullified as the Leave campaign was dominated by xenophobia. Yet most of my family, of south Asian descent, voted Out. EU supporters may associate the bloc's open borders with progressive ideas such as tolerance and a rejection of petty nationalisms but plenty of the UK's minorities, including Muslims, find the union profoundly isolating.

My parents, for example, put aside concerns over their own economic wellbeing to end membership of institutions that look anything but tolerant. The rotating presidency is held by a Slovakia, whose prime minister Robert Fico openly rejects hosting Muslim refugees in his country. A week before the vote, the advocate-general of the European Court of Justice said the hijab could be banned from workplaces as it equated to a Christian wearing a "Jesus is Great" T-shirt. Talks about Turkish membership, which have dragged on for more than a decade, are laced with a discourse assuming the Turks are somehow "just not like us".

I do not feel the "buyer's remorse" Remainers are banking on. Instead I see plenty of reasons for optimism. For the first time the EU will be forced to suffer the consequences of a referendum. Unlike with Denmark, Ireland, France, the Netherlands, and Greece, there is no fudge to be confected. We should celebrate the fact that the juggernaut of "ever-closer union" has been halted. Donald Tusk, EU council president, last year spoke of the "illusion that you can build some alternative to this traditional European vision of the economy". Now he has called time on the "utopia of Europe without nation states".

This realisation has reached the heart of most the EU's most powerful bodies. Benoît Cœuré, of the European Central Bank, warns that the continent is at risk of succumbing to a "lost generation", enveloped by chronic unemployment and stagnant living standards.

In Britain, too, the political class has been shaken out of its complacency. Ironically, many are waking up to the xenophobia and hostility to immigrants that has festered since long before June 23. Responsibility must be shouldered, with the UK Independence party, by a government that has spent most of its EU renegotiations fixated on the idea that migrants come to the UK to gain access to its benefits.

The Brexit vote has the potential to act as a watershed in the UK's democratic revival and crystallise a fundamental realignment in the country's politics. Twelve months on from the general election 17.5m people, motivated by a multiplicity of factors, delivered the biggest protest vote against the UK and European political establishment in postwar history. That millions have since called for a second referendum, and thousands have lined the streets in favour of membership, should also be celebrated.

For a nation long accused of being in the grip of political apathy, it is time to debate, contest and fight on grounds of political principles. Our leaders must do the same.
[email protected]

Also thought there was a lot to Vernon Bogdanor's letter to the Times:

[mongers]

snip

Guy on the left looks like an acquaintance of mine, I'll find out.

[mongers]

Fear is apparently stalking some in the commercial property sector/market here.   

[Sheilbh]

I think part of the problem is that in a digital world it is easy for envy to take root. The tabloids continually run stories on the doings of the rich and famous, it makes a modest income in Doncaster look small, even though they are doing well above the average in a global sense. UK minimum wage is £7.20 an hour and these places are cheap to live in by British standards.

But globally that's precisely the group of people who have done worst, the poor and middle class of the very rich in the world:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/27/the-losers-have-revolted-and-brexit-is-only-the-beginning/

[Admiral Yi]

I voted Remain but agree with every word of this excellent non, je ne Bregrette rien piece by a young FT journalist:

He's a retard.  Those supranational bodies imposing harsh penalties on its weakest members were the only ones willing to do anything to help.  And it wasn't the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, it was the eurozone countries, of which the UK was not a member.  If he thinks the UK's bailout by the IMF was a net loss, and the UK should leave the IMF as well, he's free to make that case.

Can't imagine how the hell the FT hired this clown.  Is he a lifestyle writer?

[Zanza]

I voted Remain but agree with every word of this excellent non, je ne Bregrette rien piece by a young FT journalist:

July 6, 2016 6:07 pm
I am young and I voted Leave — and there are no regrets
Mehreen Khan

I should not have voted for Brexit. As a twentysomething London-dwelling grandchild of immigrants, polling and prejudice would suggest I am of the constituency that should most favour continued UK membership of the EU.

My position as an ardent Outer was forged in the global financial crisis. Given the choice, I could not bring myself to support membership of supranational bodies that have imposed the harshest punishment on the weakest members in pursuit of a misguided economic dogma.

A month before the vote I found myself in Brussels awaiting a decision on Greece's economic future. At 3am, after almost 12 hours, four non-Greek technocrats emerged from another round of botched talks over whether finally to provide Athens with debt relief. This wasn't about the needs of people or the economy but rather an extension of the institutional squabbling that means Greece is in recession six years after the debt crisis began. The episode typifies how the EU does politics: sheltered from its populace, shrouded by obfuscation and ultimately dodging decisions even when the livelihoods and prosperity of millions are at stake.

Closer to home, there are plenty of other reasons to vote Out. Many in Britain say the Brexit vote should be nullified as the Leave campaign was dominated by xenophobia. Yet most of my family, of south Asian descent, voted Out. EU supporters may associate the bloc's open borders with progressive ideas such as tolerance and a rejection of petty nationalisms but plenty of the UK's minorities, including Muslims, find the union profoundly isolating.

My parents, for example, put aside concerns over their own economic wellbeing to end membership of institutions that look anything but tolerant. The rotating presidency is held by a Slovakia, whose prime minister Robert Fico openly rejects hosting Muslim refugees in his country. A week before the vote, the advocate-general of the European Court of Justice said the hijab could be banned from workplaces as it equated to a Christian wearing a "Jesus is Great" T-shirt. Talks about Turkish membership, which have dragged on for more than a decade, are laced with a discourse assuming the Turks are somehow "just not like us".

I do not feel the "buyer's remorse" Remainers are banking on. Instead I see plenty of reasons for optimism. For the first time the EU will be forced to suffer the consequences of a referendum. Unlike with Denmark, Ireland, France, the Netherlands, and Greece, there is no fudge to be confected. We should celebrate the fact that the juggernaut of "ever-closer union" has been halted. Donald Tusk, EU council president, last year spoke of the "illusion that you can build some alternative to this traditional European vision of the economy". Now he has called time on the "utopia of Europe without nation states".

This realisation has reached the heart of most the EU's most powerful bodies. Benoît Cœuré, of the European Central Bank, warns that the continent is at risk of succumbing to a "lost generation", enveloped by chronic unemployment and stagnant living standards.

In Britain, too, the political class has been shaken out of its complacency. Ironically, many are waking up to the xenophobia and hostility to immigrants that has festered since long before June 23. Responsibility must be shouldered, with the UK Independence party, by a government that has spent most of its EU renegotiations fixated on the idea that migrants come to the UK to gain access to its benefits.

The Brexit vote has the potential to act as a watershed in the UK's democratic revival and crystallise a fundamental realignment in the country's politics. Twelve months on from the general election 17.5m people, motivated by a multiplicity of factors, delivered the biggest protest vote against the UK and European political establishment in postwar history. That millions have since called for a second referendum, and thousands have lined the streets in favour of membership, should also be celebrated.

For a nation long accused of being in the grip of political apathy, it is time to debate, contest and fight on grounds of political principles. Our leaders must do the same.
[email protected]

This is a supremely stupid article. None of the things he mentions will get better through Brexit. If Britain's answer to the problems of the world or Europe is to isolate themselves from these by reverting to the nation state, it shows how little of the past British vigor in shaping the matters of the world is left.

[Zanza]

I think part of the problem is that in a digital world it is easy for envy to take root. The tabloids continually run stories on the doings of the rich and famous, it makes a modest income in Doncaster look small, even though they are doing well above the average in a global sense. UK minimum wage is £7.20 an hour and these places are cheap to live in by British standards.

But globally that's precisely the group of people who have done worst, the poor and middle class of the very rich in the world:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/27/the-losers-have-revolted-and-brexit-is-only-the-beginning/

I predict that Brexit will not fix that.

[Sheilbh]

He's a retard.  Those supranational bodies imposing harsh penalties on its weakest members were the only ones willing to do anything to help.  And it wasn't the EU that bailed out the PIIGs, it was the eurozone countries, of which the UK was not a member.  If he thinks the UK's bailout by the IMF was a net loss, and the UK should leave the IMF as well, he's free to make that case.

She. I don't think the issue is that it was a net loss but that's the most European, most integrated bit of the EU. If the IMF was removing democratically elected Prime Ministers, imposing austerity that would make Osborne wince and a migration policy for a white European club then I'd think there'd be a strong argument for leaving that too.

Can't imagine how the hell the FT hired this clown.  Is he a lifestyle writer?

Covers the markets. Just like a friend in New York who reports for the FT risk team and is a massive leftie, or, say, Kadhim Shuber who is also hugely left-wing. I think cost of living in London has had a radicalising effect.

This is a supremely stupid article. None of the things he mentions will get better through Brexit. If Britain's answer to the problems of the world or Europe is to isolate themselves from these by reverting to the nation state, it shows how little of the past British vigor in shaping the matters of the world is left.

Actually I think the xenophobia will and there's a lot of potential in this moment. But none of it'll get better if that's the route Europe wants to go down they can do it alone without the tacit endorsement of the UK. There's a 'not in my name' element to this.

[garbon]

I'll admit I was rather confused by Zanza and Yi re: writer's gender.

[Valmy]

If the IMF was removing democratically elected Prime Ministers, imposing austerity that would make Osborne wince and a migration policy for a white European club then I'd think there'd be a strong argument for leaving that too.

The IMF has never "imposed austerity"? News to me.

And the migration thing is bizarre thing to whine about if you are going to go on about how they should not interfere with democratically elected leaders nor impose things. It was not like the EU countries were all trying to enact pro-migrant policies and the EU stopped them. Then what you said would make sense.

[Zanza]

This is a supremely stupid article. None of the things he mentions will get better through Brexit. If Britain's answer to the problems of the world or Europe is to isolate themselves from these by reverting to the nation state, it shows how little of the past British vigor in shaping the matters of the world is left.

Actually I think the xenophobia will and there's a lot of potential in this moment. But none of it'll get better if that's the route Europe wants to go down they can do it alone without the tacit endorsement of the UK. There's a 'not in my name' element to this.

"Not in my name." That's naive Facebook policy-making. You have just given up on trying to influence things for the better and prefer to pretend that the world outside does not exist. And if you think this will have a positive outcome on xenophobia it makes me wonder if you read what the most pressing issue for the Leave voters was. They were motivated by xenophobia. Brexit will not fix the grievances of those Leave voters. Why should it then fix their xenophobia? Those pesky foreigners will still be there and there still be more coming even after Brexit. What do you expect they see as a solution for their grievances next when the EU is gone as a scapegoat...?

[Admiral Yi]

Shelf, we've discussed Greece et al ad nauseum et cetera ipso facto quod erat demonstratum before, and there's no need to rehash the whole thing, but you're happiness in using the word "impose" shows you're unwilling to analyze you're own assumptions.

[garbon]

I don't see what she is optimistic about though. Doesn't seem like any of the things she notes are likely to change because of this.

[garbon]

This is a supremely stupid article. None of the things he mentions will get better through Brexit. If Britain's answer to the problems of the world or Europe is to isolate themselves from these by reverting to the nation state, it shows how little of the past British vigor in shaping the matters of the world is left.

Actually I think the xenophobia will and there's a lot of potential in this moment. But none of it'll get better if that's the route Europe wants to go down they can do it alone without the tacit endorsement of the UK. There's a 'not in my name' element to this.

"Not in my name." That's naive Facebook policy-making. You have just given up on trying to influence things for the better and prefer to pretend that the world outside does not exist. And if you think this will have a positive outcome on xenophobia it makes me wonder if you read what the most pressing issue for the Leave voters was. They were motivated by xenophobia. Brexit will not fix the grievances of those Leave voters. Why should it then fix their xenophobia? Those pesky foreigners will still be there and there still be more coming even after Brexit. What do you expect they see as a solution for their grievances next when the EU is gone as a scapegoat...?

Yeah exactly all this.