Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Martinus]

I agree that British economy as a whole is better off because of the EU membership. But the pesky problem with a democracy is that it gives everybody one vote no matter how much clout in the economy they have. And British elites did a lousy job of both educating the masses and making sure some of the benefits they naturally get from the EU membership are transferred to the masses. Add to that a devastating financial crisis and you have a big support for Leave.

[Tamas]

Let's not start painting the UK as a failing state please. There is a reason why the immigrants are flocking here.

[garbon]

I agree that British economy as a whole is better off because of the EU membership. But the pesky problem with a democracy is that it gives everybody one vote no matter how much clout in the economy they have. And British elites did a lousy job of both educating the masses and making sure some of the benefits they naturally get from the EU membership are transferred to the masses. Add to that a devastating financial crisis and you have a big support for Leave.

Well direct democracy allows that...and I thought you were against that.

[Martinus]

I agree that British economy as a whole is better off because of the EU membership. But the pesky problem with a democracy is that it gives everybody one vote no matter how much clout in the economy they have. And British elites did a lousy job of both educating the masses and making sure some of the benefits they naturally get from the EU membership are transferred to the masses. Add to that a devastating financial crisis and you have a big support for Leave.

Well direct democracy allows that...and I thought you were against that.

Yes and yes. I may dislike the rules but once they are given, you have to play them well.

[Jaron]

Tamas,

I have a question for you.

If Britain exited the EU, would that have any ramifications for you?

Would your residency in the UK be at risk?

I think you've had great success in the last couple of years professionally and in your personal life. It'd be a great tragedy to see you go back to tech support and dodging goats on your way to work.

No I would be fine until UKIP needs a new shtick, and the unavoidable economic uncertainty and decline following the years of Brexit (this is inevitable in my opinion, even if Brexit ends up being an astonishing economic success in the long term), would point out East Europeans as the scourge still present despite the miracle-medicine of Brexit already having happened.
Now THEN my well being would be directly linked to the economic success of Brexit.

Don't roll your eyes at me. I was just asking a question.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Remember that I'll be voting Remain next Thursday Tamas, I'm just exploring why it will be a very close call, possibly even Out.

Looking back on the past 40 years I'm pretty pleased with the way things have improved here in the UK. The sexism, racism and homophobia were really bad back in the 1970s; we have come a long way. But there is one area of where things have got worse, ie contempt for the working class and lack of respect for less talented individuals, this has fed back into their conditions of employment, housing situation, even their education (with further education colleges having their budgets continually slashed).

I don't think this is merely a British problem, it is Europe-wide and further (Trump for example). The elites need to let a few more crumbs fall from the top table, otherwise there will be an enormous FUCK YOU! from the lower classes.

[Tamas]

I understand all that, but my admittedly too emotional stance on this question is just made worse when such questions which are in fact totally independent of one's EU membership are being decisive in the question.

As you point out, the perceived injustice happening to the worker class everywhere fuels discontent. It is crazy to have the answer of removing the EU's checks on human rights and worker's rights, though. It is just destructive radicalism for the sake of it. Yes, like with Trump.

[Sheilbh]

What EU checks on human rights? Genuine question.

[Tamas]

What EU checks on human rights? Genuine question.

Well, what I mean is, one of the rallying cry of Leave people is to not having to abide with the european human rights court which I know is not an EU organisation but its kind of scary when the people rallies to have less ways of defending itself from the perceived evil aristocracy.

[Sheilbh]

So apparently there is a UKIP flotilla of pro-Brexit fishing boats sailing up the Thames.

Britain 2016 is an odd place.

[Martinus]

The world 2016 is a weird place.

One thing that gives me quite a pause about the whole Trump/Farrage/alt-right crowd is their love for Putin, by the way. They just seem to adore him. 

[Sheilbh]

That's mad. He's their model.

The whole thing, the 21st century Alexander I pose, the post-modern authoritarianism, they've bought it lock stock.

The only difference between Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Putin or Erdogan is the historical/cultural references they're pastiching. As I say Putinism is the real counter to the End of History. It's the first universally applicable alternative since the collapse of communism.

[Sheilbh]

There is apparently also a flotilla of pro-remain boats. Bob Geldoff is currently shouting to Farage about how few European Parliament fisheries debates he attended.

Meanwhile Ken Livingstone is offering to host a BBC documentary on Hitler.

[Sheilbh]

The UKIP flotilla has now reached Parliament and is blaring out The Great Escape. A film in which most of the escapees die...

[mongers]

There is apparently also a flotilla of pro-remain boats. Bob Geldoff is currently shouting to Farage about how few European Parliament fisheries debates he attended.

Meanwhile Ken Livingstone is offering to host a BBC documentary on Hitler.

Come on, now you're just making it up.