Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Martinus]

Before the recession (and its spending cuts), our public health care system was better than the NHS. It was one of the best in the world, actually. It's still pretty good despite the cuts.

"Health care tourism" from eastern Europe and such was used by right wing scaremongers to limit access to health care to foreigners (including EU nationals) during the recession too.

I was under the impression you guys had a sort of cross-charging system, so that the user's home state would pay for care in a different part of the union.

Why would that be the case?

[Zanza]

I was under the impression you guys had a sort of cross-charging system, so that the user's home state would pay for care in a different part of the union.

It's called EHIC and covers everybody in the statutory health insurance schemes of the member countries (+some other European countries).

[Zanza]

So I found this: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case

The only bit I could find that outlined how they envisage the relationship between Britain and the EU is this:

We need regulatory systems that are very agile, easy to correct, and decentralised. Europe could work on the basis of mutual recognition of national standards combined with global standards where appropriate.

Why would the EU agree to that? Mutual recognition of national standards would mean that Britain can set whatever regulatory framework even when the core of the single market is that there is just one single harmonized regulatory framework. Mutual recognition works for a few commodities in international FTAs and is usually much more limited than the comprehensive set of EU single market regulations. An example is the recent FTA with Korea. But even with international FTAs in place, it is often a nightmare to actually follow for global companies that want to sell their products in various markets as you have to check all parts etc. whether they qualify for the mutual recognition.

[Richard Hakluyt]

There is a provision for a state leaving, at least two years are available for the two parties to agree the terms of the exit etc :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

That timeframe doesn't matter anyway as it can be extended indefinitely. I was more interested in what the "Vote Leave" faction has in mind. Did they already outline what the "better deal" consists of and how to get there?

No, the debate so far has been mainly scare stories vs. mindless optimism. If we leave the EU we will either become impoverished cannibals living in caves or our growth rate will surge as we embrace the freedoms provided. The reality will be rather more boring one suspects..........one of the first consequences of a vote to leave would be endless hours of tedious negotiations with the EU, with the best result being rather similar to the situation we are already in 

[Valmy]

If I was British no way in hell would I want to be part of any union including Greece, Italy, and other such dysfunctional economies.

Explain. I mean sure Mexico has issues but NAFTA has not destroyed us so why would the EU destroy the UK for having economic deals with Greece or Italy? How is that such a huge problem that 'no way in hell' should anybody join?

I mean certain US states are doing badly but I don't see how that has ever taken down the rest of us.

[crazy canuck]

(Incidentally, I see that marti is persisting in his strange belief that the UK does not have an industrial sector. In fact, at 10% of GDP, our industrial sector is similar in size to that of France or the USA. It is Germany, with 20%, that is the weirdo in advanced economies so there  )

I think his belief that " a lot of [Britain's] economy is generated by providing banking, insurance, advisory and legal services to external clients" is even stranger than his belief that the UK has no industrial sector. Financial services are a big part of the UK economy (highest in the G-7 at 8.1%, with Canada second at 6.7% - numbers from end of 2014), but 8% isn't all to external clients and even if it were, 8% isn't "a lot of" the UK's economy.

Marti's view is slightly egocentric.  Surprised?

[Monoriu]

I am baffled by this, actually.  Surely the benefits of the common market outweigh the net marginal cost of providing welfare to some immigrants?  The risk of holding the referendum seems unacceptably high to me.

[sbr]

I am baffled by this, actually.  Surely the benefits of the common market outweigh the net marginal cost of providing welfare to some immigrants?  The risk of holding the referendum seems unacceptably high to me.

This has nothing to do with net margins or risks of referendums.  To a very large group of people there is nothing worse than giving "free money" to undeserving people.

Whether it is "Welfare Queens"  or people spending their tax return checks on big screen TVs or bailing out/subsidizing Greece/Italy/etc. there are a lot of people who would rather sink with them then to give them "free money".

[Martinus]

I am baffled by this, actually.  Surely the benefits of the common market outweigh the net marginal cost of providing welfare to some immigrants?  The risk of holding the referendum seems unacceptably high to me.

Finally something Mono and I agree on.

[Tamas]

Not that I was on the leaving side of things, but what has really convinced me that the Leavers are just silly was learning that EU-partner countries, like Norway (whom are used as examples for why Brexit is a good idea) have to keep to the same EU regulations on products and such in order to trade with EU, as regular members.
The only practical difference is that they don't have a say in the stuff they have to keep to.

So, basically, the pro-Brexit people are arguing that for more independence, you should drop all your rights while keeping all your responsibilites. Brilliant.

And maybe 2.5 years in the UK has not been enough to see the plight the EU has brought to this country, but it seems like a total non-issue in 99.9% of your life here. How this has become such a populist chewing bone that now 50 years of cooperation and integration hangs in the balance of a popular vote is near incrompehensible.

[Monoriu]

The referendum will be held across all four countries of the United Kingdom, as well as in the Overseas Territory of Gibraltar, as a single majority vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#Voting_areas_and_counts

From the wiki page of the referendum, I don't think I can vote.  Not that I will vote even if I am eligible.  I was just curious. 

[garbon]

SNP says they will definitely call for another independence referendum if the UK decides to leave EU.

[Brazen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't people who work in the UK qualify for a range of benefits as well?

Yes, they qualify for the same benefits as the natives (or did, part of Cameron's deal is a rather marginal reduction of this IIRC); they also pay the same taxes etc so this seems very reasonable to me.

I think one of the things that rankles the Out voters is when one member of the family comes over, gets work and sends child benefits home, where it's worth considerably more, rather than being spent benefiting the UK economy.

[Razgovory]

Is Britain just starting to have the annoyances of a rich country?  The people have been remitting money from the US to other countries for a long time.  Hell, people have been working in the US and remitting money to the UK for well over a century.

[Tamas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't people who work in the UK qualify for a range of benefits as well?

Yes, they qualify for the same benefits as the natives (or did, part of Cameron's deal is a rather marginal reduction of this IIRC); they also pay the same taxes etc so this seems very reasonable to me.

I think one of the things that rankles the Out voters is when one member of the family comes over, gets work and sends child benefits home, where it's worth considerably more, rather than being spent benefiting the UK economy.

a) it is a valid complaint I think, as it is not fair

b) if the same people do not like East Euro immigration they will get a rude awakening when all those divided families will just move in together in the UK