Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Razgovory]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago? 

[Legbiter]

I want to be the UK ecumenical patriarch.

I laughed for a good, solid, minute at your post. Just scrolling by now brings a chuckle.  

[Valmy]

Sometimes I wish I did not understand the English language at all so I didn't have to be aware of the goings on over there.

Damn. Me too man. Me too.

[Josquius]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago?

This happens quite often in European competitions.
E.g.
https://www.tntsports.co.uk/football/uefa-europa-conference-league/2023-2024/legia-warsaw-fans-banned-for-five-away-matches-after-trouble-at-aston-villa-in-uefa-europa-conferenc_sto9919453/story.shtml

There's far more "no go zones" in the US than the UK.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The no-go zones in my city are a couple of tiny areas that are 100% white. Essentially the council puts all its most problematic families in the same couple of sink estates. These are the sort of areas which taxis do not go to and where a visiting ambulance of fire engine is stoned. It is like fractional distillation but with people. One of my walks takes me through the main Muslim area of the town, about half Muslim I would say, slightly less if anything, it is perfectly safe and even has quite nice vibes for what is a poor area.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - that also feels old fashioned to me. I remember Fox News bits on "no go" areas in Britain in the 2000s.

I think it was nonsense then and it still is now. To be honest I think there are strands of American opinion that are simply uncomfortable with any real level of racial, religious or cultural diversity in Europe - or simply find it very jarring with their imagined Europe.

On the El Fattah case Yvette Cooper has launched an internal inquiry in the FCDO: "it is clear that this has been an unacceptable failure and long stnding procedures and due diligence arrangements have been completely inadequate." She says neither she nor her predecessors in Tory governments were briefed properly.

Starmer has now issued a statement that's tonally rather different:

Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
As @YvetteCooperMP sets out in her letter, the historic tweets by Alaa Abd El-Fattah are absolutely abhorrent.

With the rise of antisemitism, and recent horrific attacks, I know this has added to the distress of many in the Jewish community in the UK.

We are taking steps to review the information failures in this case.

The ever so slight complication to this is that the Egyptians have said they provided full briefings to their British counterparts (I assume in the civil service) including tweets. I would add I think the Egyptian view is a common Arab view that they get lectured and disrespected by the West (particularly Europe) for basically doing dirty work for the West. There was a long post by an Egyptian observer but I thought his summary points are striking because I think these reflect a more common Arab view (auto-translated):

But there are some observations I would like to mention quickly:

1- The attempts by Keir Starmer's government to distance itself from responsibility, and the claim of not being aware of Alaa Abdel Fattah's past and his previous positions toward Jews and the white man, seem closer to an effort to contain the repercussions of an internal political crisis, a disavowal that is not based on any facts. For the materials published about him had been circulating and documented for years, and were never out of reach of knowledge for any political or security entity that dealt with his file, whether during Rishi Sunak's government, previous governments, or even the current government itself.

2- Alaa Abdel Fattah's apology directed to the British came less than 24 hours after the escalation of attack campaigns against him in the media and public opinion there, which pushed him to reinterpret and clarify his previous positions, especially what relates to his incitement against Jews and the white man. However, in contrast, he lacked the same courage and honor to offer a similar apology to the Egyptian society, which paid with hundreds of army and police officers as martyrs in confronting terrorism and restoring internal security and stability.

3- These developments clearly reveal a glaring double standard in the British approach to the case, as well as in the nature of Alaa's apology itself; for the issue of his incitement to violence inside Egypt was not raised as a concern or for review, while he only became a danger and extremist when his rhetoric targeted groups considered part of the Western social fabric, which redefined the threat as an assault on British internal security.

4- There is indeed a problem in what is called the human rights community in Egypt, those who over three decades have systematically politicized it and made it a cover for financial gain and social climbing, and justified incitement to violence under the banner of "freedom of opinion and expression," in line with the agendas of funders. Whereas any similar incitement speech, if issued within the Western countries themselves, would be dealt with legally and decisively without any leniency.

5- I believe that demands to revoke Egyptian citizenship from Alaa Abdel Fattah are likely to escalate in the coming period, in light of the growing state of anger in Egyptian public opinion.

On that last point it seems entirely plausible to me that the Egyptians revoke his citizenship, he posts something about Palestine Action and the British state ends up having to imprison him.

It's also not made easier by El Fattah reportedly liking Facebook posts describing the story about him as a "Zionist campaign". His sister, described in the BBC as a "pro-democracy activist" (which she is), has also been talking about it as a "campaign" against her brother - obviously her posts celebrating October 7 have also been dug up.

[HVC]

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

[garbon]

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

[PJL]

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

[garbon]

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

[PJL]

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

Home Office lawyers thought otherwise, so you need to ask them about i

Gonna be a race to strip him of citzrnship, isn't it? UK can't do it if egypt does it first, right? And vice versa. Can't leave someone stateless?

Shamima?

She had dual Bangladeshi & British citizenship, and we stripped our side first.

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

People under the age of 21 are automatically given Bangladeshi citizenship if one of their parents are also Bangladeshi. She was 19 when UK citizenship was revoked.

[Sheilbh]

I thought Bangladesh had repeatedly stated she was not a Bangladeshi citizen and UK gov said whatevs.

Yeah. You can't make a person stateless - so there's always been powers to revoke citizenship of a dual national (arguably the main/only big risk of being dual national?). I think the change with Begum was that they interpreted that as also applying if someone is entitled to another citizenship so whether she had Bangladeshi citizenship or not wasn't relevant because she was entitled to it. On the same measure Egypt could have stripped El Fattah of citizenship and deported him to the UK.

I'm really uncomfortable with the decision on Begum (and Jack Letts for that matter) - I think it was wrong. I think she was British. She was born and raised in this country and she went to Syria to join ISIS. She was also 15. She was groomed, trafficked, raped and had 3 children (all dead) by her "husband" before she was 19. I'd add that the person who recruited her and got her into Syria was also an asset for Canadian intelligence so quite possibly decisions were made allowing young kids from Western countries to be trafficked to keep that intelligence source alive. But I think whatever else, she is our responsibility and it's wrong for us to dump that on Iraq or Syria or Bangladesh. It's rare I agree wholeheartedly with Jacob Rees-Mogg on anything but he's actually written a few really good pieces on this and I do totally with him on it.

[Razgovory]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago?

This happens quite often in European competitions.
E.g.
https://www.tntsports.co.uk/football/uefa-europa-conference-league/2023-2024/legia-warsaw-fans-banned-for-five-away-matches-after-trouble-at-aston-villa-in-uefa-europa-conferenc_sto9919453/story.shtml

There's far more "no go zones" in the US than the UK.

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

[HVC]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago?

This happens quite often in European competitions.
E.g.
https://www.tntsports.co.uk/football/uefa-europa-conference-league/2023-2024/legia-warsaw-fans-banned-for-five-away-matches-after-trouble-at-aston-villa-in-uefa-europa-conferenc_sto9919453/story.shtml

There's far more "no go zones" in the US than the UK.

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

Detroit

[Razgovory]

The no-go zones in my city are a couple of tiny areas that are 100% white. Essentially the council puts all its most problematic families in the same couple of sink estates. These are the sort of areas which taxis do not go to and where a visiting ambulance of fire engine is stoned. It is like fractional distillation but with people. One of my walks takes me through the main Muslim area of the town, about half Muslim I would say, slightly less if anything, it is perfectly safe and even has quite nice vibes for what is a poor area.

Maybe it's only no-go for Jews.