Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Maybe don't people shouldn't pick a career paths that require them to be in London then? Why should they get sympathy if moving to London only exacerbates the issues?

So...if you're born in the north don't bother with school, just get yourself down the pit (or more accurately these days....in the amazon warehouse), its all you're good for?

Of course, people don't actually have to live in London to work in London...

We'll see what happens with the post covid world and whether its here to stay. Fingers crossed this is right. We can only speak of the pre-covid situation for now.

[Sheilbh]

Ridiculing Tyr's textbook Northern biases is always fun, but it is blindingly obvious to any casual observer that most of the country's jobs are in and around London.

I mean that's clearly not true

London dominates for sure - especially in certain sectors and there is a need to re-balance. But even if you took an incredibly broad take on "in and around London" to include all of the South-East, London and East of England that's less than half the county. You know the entire South-West, Midlands and North don't just do nothing And even within the very broad around London there are obviously cities within that area with their own economies and demands - for example Cambridge, Oxford, Reading, Milton Keynes, Southampton, Portsmouth etc. Those are not mere commuter towns feeding London.

Except for politics, print media and the more specialised bits of finance (hedge funds, PE houses) and maybe certain arts, I can't think of a sector where you would have to move to London. I think what is true is that the biggest companies often have their biggest bases there - so it's often where they do a huge intake of graduates and if you can move to London it is easier to get onto one of those large grad schemes for 2-3 years. Once that's done though you can start applying in the rest of the country where there are smaller bases and grad scheme but sometimes more opportunity for experienced hires and there are always exceptions - there are some very big companies with very big grad schemes with their HQ outside of London for example I know that Network Rail's main base (their "national centre") is in Milton Keynes though they have an HQ office in London that's very small by comparison, similarly a lot of the big retailers are HQed out of London.

Although I think benefits changes have made it a lot more challenging, if not impossible. I moved to London with two friends in 2009 when the job market wasn't great. Part of that was because we all wanted to live in London - we, for different reasons, at that stage of our lives didn't really want to live in the country or a small city but the biggest we could (and I think that is a motive for a lot of people). There were probably also more jobs in London than other parts of the country, especially in 2009 but that was always a risk. And we were supported by a more generous welfare state. Two of us were on Jobseeker's Allowance and Housing Benefit and the other was a student - I don't know if that's still possible. One of my friends did an unpaid internship for three months (apparently this was not allowed under the benefit rules but they accepted it was an honest mistake so didn't make him re-pay just stopped his benefits) but luckily at the end of that he was able to find a job in that (very competitive) sector; I got by then did a grad scheme I didn't enjoy very much before moving to law - the other one finished his Masters and got on a grad scheme. But twelve years later we are all still in London - two of us are probably never going to move (the other will definitely settle down in the countryside and have rural children at some point).

[Duque de Bragança]

Work isn't the only reason to live in London.

It is sure as hell it is not the weather or the rents.

It is indeed too hot and sunny in London.

No complain about the rents? Your place is that bad? I stand corrected. 

[garbon]

Maybe don't people shouldn't pick a career paths that require them to be in London then? Why should they get sympathy if moving to London only exacerbates the issues?

So...if you're born in the north don't bother with school, just get yourself down the pit (or more accurately these days....in the amazon warehouse), its all you're good for?

Of course, people don't actually have to live in London to work in London...

We'll see what happens with the post covid world and whether its here to stay. Fingers crossed this is right. We can only speak of the pre-covid situation for now.

The reality is that people move to London for more reasons than just work. After all, I didn't move to London because I needed a job - I already had one when I moved.

The idea that you can only be sympathetic that rents are too damn high when you are forced to move to London is odd. Surely we should want rents more affordable for the populace regardless of reason.

[Josquius]

The reality is that people move to London for more reasons than just work. After all, I didn't move to London because I needed a job - I already had one when I moved.

The idea that you can only be sympathetic that rents are too damn high when you are forced to move to London is odd. Surely we should want rents more affordable for the populace regardless of reason.

"Want"- as in think it'd be nice if that happened. Sure. I'm all for everyone having a better life.
"Want" - as in think its a major issue that desperately needs fixing. Not really. You decide to move to an expensive place, then life is expensive.  Its your choice to spend your limited funds on that. Its no more an issue than the cost of whatever else people decide to spend their disposable income on.
I think you over-estimate the amount of people who decide to move there out of choice. For most people there is no such luxury of deciding where you live based on anything other than work and family commitments until well into your adult-life (at which point work becomes a bit more of a choice but the family commitments can become far stronger)

[garbon]

The reality is that people move to London for more reasons than just work. After all, I didn't move to London because I needed a job - I already had one when I moved.

The idea that you can only be sympathetic that rents are too damn high when you are forced to move to London is odd. Surely we should want rents more affordable for the populace regardless of reason.

"Want"- as in think it'd be nice if that happened. Sure. I'm all for everyone having a better life.
"Want" - as in think its a major issue that desperately needs fixing. Not really. You decide to move to an expensive place, then life is expensive.  Its your choice to spend your limited funds on that. Its no more an issue than the cost of whatever else people decide to spend their disposable income on.
I think you over-estimate the amount of people who decide to move there out of choice. For most people there is no such luxury of deciding where you live based on anything other than work and family commitments until well into your adult-life (at which point work becomes a bit more of a choice but the family commitments can become far stronger)

So it just comes down to if you are from the north and want to do any career even if not present in the north, you should have our sympathy?

[Sheilbh]

I think you over-estimate the amount of people who decide to move there out of choice. For most people there is no such luxury of deciding where you live based on anything other than work and family commitments until well into your adult-life (at which point work becomes a bit more of a choice but the family commitments can become far stronger)

I totally disagree. I think there is no point where you are more free to move anywhere than in your twenties. Normally people are less abe to decide because of family.

To be honest I think part of the drive to London is almost just that it's a rite of passage for graduates. Finish university, move to a big city with your mates. And London sucking people in is a relatively recent phenomenon - London was shrinking for most of the 20th century (from a peak in the 30s) until the 90s when it started to grow again. By its low point in the mid-90s there were fewer people in London than there had been in the 1900s. Far more people left London than came in but it's always been a bit churny.

[Josquius]

I totally disagree. I think there is no point where you are more free to move anywhere than in your twenties. Normally people are less abe to decide because of family.

To be honest I think part of the drive to London is almost just that it's a rite of passage for graduates. Finish university, move to a big city with your mates.

Totally the opposite of my experience.
It wasn't because of any particular love of neutrality that I moved to Switzerland. It was purely thats where the work was.
Japan too, though it was somewhere that really appeals to me, was in large part born out of practical considerations of being unable to get a job in Europe. If I could have been free on location I wouldn't have stayed in the same part of it where I ended up for more than a few months.
If money wasn't such a problem for me I wouldn't have moved home from Sweden (my time in Sweden itself would have been far better, money worries really damaged that a lot), I would have moved to Berlin, or Fukuoka, or somewhere else I know to be nice rather than having to take a punt at a limited list of the jobs on offer, location be damned.

I'm not alone in this either. Of the people I know who went to uni a huge chunk of them went home or stayed where they went to uni,  forgoing a decent career for fairly meh white collar work that didn't require them to move.
There was no big enthusiasm for a move to London from those who did outside of a few (wealthy) people.

And London sucking people in is a relatively recent phenomenon - London was shrinking for most of the 20th century (from a peak in the 30s) until the 90s when it started to grow again. By its low point in the mid-90s there were fewer people in London than there had been in the 1900s. Far more people left London than came in but it's always been a bit churny.

The London we want back.
Sans the industrial decay et al.

The reality is that people move to London for more reasons than just work. After all, I didn't move to London because I needed a job - I already had one when I moved.

The idea that you can only be sympathetic that rents are too damn high when you are forced to move to London is odd. Surely we should want rents more affordable for the populace regardless of reason.

"Want"- as in think it'd be nice if that happened. Sure. I'm all for everyone having a better life.
"Want" - as in think its a major issue that desperately needs fixing. Not really. You decide to move to an expensive place, then life is expensive.  Its your choice to spend your limited funds on that. Its no more an issue than the cost of whatever else people decide to spend their disposable income on.
I think you over-estimate the amount of people who decide to move there out of choice. For most people there is no such luxury of deciding where you live based on anything other than work and family commitments until well into your adult-life (at which point work becomes a bit more of a choice but the family commitments can become far stronger)

So it just comes down to if you are from the north and want to do any career even if not present in the north, you should have our sympathy?

That is true. But not the entire point no. Though it does link in with everything else.
What's needed is not "Just build more houses in London" rather...
1: Take far more active steps to make the economy less London-centric (a huge diversity in things to be done for this).
2: Set in place far stronger schemes to help key workers and low income Londoners to get decent housing in the city.
3: Fix the benefits system to better support those who take active steps to build a career.
4: Kind of part of 1 and 3 but feel like noting it separately....better incentivise companies to be more flexible in placement location for junior posts.

[Sheilbh]

Totally the opposite of my experience.
It wasn't because of any particular love of neutrality that I moved to Switzerland. It was purely thats where the work was.
Japan too, though it was somewhere that really appeals to me, was in large part born out of practical considerations of being unable to get a job in Europe. If I could have been free on location I wouldn't have stayed in the same part of it where I ended up for more than a few months.
If money wasn't such a problem for me I wouldn't have moved home from Sweden (my time in Sweden itself would have been far better, money worries really damaged that a lot), I would have moved to Berlin, or Fukuoka, or somewhere else I know to be nice rather than having to take a punt at a limited list of the jobs on offer, location be damned.

So my degree was in the humanities which I think does limit you to the UK until you have some work experience or a masters (which I couldn't afford and I was an indifferent undergrad so wouldn't have got funding). Because I would have loved to go anywhere out of the country but my degree was in English Lit and then I converted to law which sort of traps you in the bit of the world with those laws unless you cross-qualify.

But yeah I would always have gone for anywhere globally if I could have (and it was a city). I suppose in my early 20s my main driver was not to be anywhere near my family, which would have felt like failure - and because I moved back for a month or two after uni and it just felt so depressing, and I didn't want to go back to Bristol because I thought I'd sort of "done" that and I'd just get trapped in the same routines going to the same places. I remember having conversations with the guys I moved to London with  where it was anything but move home - and only one of us had family in a city, so for me and the other guy, our parents lived in rural South-West England which I think is difficult to get a job in as a graduate especially if, like me, you can't drive

And I think in even the most comprehensively "leveled up" Britain there won't be abundant grad jobs in Somerset or Dorset

So I wanted to go somewhere "not here" and ideally the place that was most different and busy so overseas (and I did apply for NGOs, international orgs etc but just had nothing they wanted ) or London. I wanted to go somewhere I could throw myself into and lose myself I suppose.

But in your early 20s you have least money of your adult life - but you also have the least family ties, the least commitments and obligations, you're most free to take a risk and just move for a job. As I say I couldn't have moved to London without benefits and I don't know what I'd do if I were a non-driving graduate now.

I'm not alone in this either. Of the people I know who went to uni a huge chunk of them went home or stayed where they went to uni,  forgoing a decent career for fairly meh white collar work that didn't require them to move.
There was no big enthusiasm for a move to London from those who did outside of a few (wealthy) people.

Yeah that's true, there is a huge chunk who stay in the cities they studied in. About half of my university friendship group moved to London (though half of them were Londoners), a lot stayed in Bristol and some went to nearby cities like Cardiff or Swansea.

I think a lot of university cities do well out of people staying - Sheffield, Liverpool, Bristol, Manchester etc. I think there's probably more of a drive to move out in small town universities like Aberystwyth or Exeter or campus universities because there are fewer jobs and most of them are probably in the university in some way or other.

The London we want back.
Sans the industrial decay et al.

I think the decay and people leaving are kind of linked

Edit: But within the UK London is very much a generational thing - there's net immigration from the rest of the UK for people in their twenties; there's net emigration for literally every other age group.

[The Larch]

This debate is kinda ridiculous, every single economically dynamic large city (does not need to be a capital) will always vacuum up young people from its hinterland or from around its region/country or even other regions/countries. Surely it can't get too out of hand, but it's a very natural phenomenom all over the world.

I totally disagree. I think there is no point where you are more free to move anywhere than in your twenties. Normally people are less abe to decide because of family.

To be honest I think part of the drive to London is almost just that it's a rite of passage for graduates. Finish university, move to a big city with your mates.

Yeah, that happens in every single country on Earth, I'd say, except some very particular exceptions. Southern Italians move to Northern Italy, have been doing so for generations. People from all over Spain move to Madrid. Young Portuguese move to Lisbon en masse, same as young Poles move to Warsaw, and so on and so forth. It happens everywhere.

It wasn't because of any particular love of neutrality that I moved to Switzerland. It was purely thats where the work was.
Japan too, though it was somewhere that really appeals to me, was in large part born out of practical considerations of being unable to get a job in Europe.

Congrats Tyr, you get the Mono Award for ridiculous perception about your own job prospects related post. You could not get a job in the whole of Europe? Give me a break.

[Sheilbh]

This debate is kinda ridiculous, every single economically dynamic large city (does not need to be a capital) will always vacuum up young people from its hinterland or from around its region/country or even other regions/countries. Surely it can't get too out of hand, but it's a very natural phenomenom all over the world.

Yeah and it isn't just London. With London it tends to happen with graduates from all over the country - but other cities like Liverpool have huge net inflow from the rest of the country of people coming to university and then lots of grads move to London but lots of people stay but then move out to the countryside/smaller cities in the North-West when they're a little older and tired of urban living. Same happens with, I imagine, almost every big-ish university town in the country.

London's just bigger and does it to people in their 20s not people aged 18.

[Duque de Bragança]

I won't surprise anybody by stating that Paris does to the same to "hinterland" cities up to Orléans or farther, if there is a high-speed train line (le club des villes à une heure ou deux de Paris).

[Josquius]

So I wanted to go somewhere "not here" and ideally the place that was most different and busy so overseas (and I did apply for NGOs, international orgs etc but just had nothing they wanted ) or London. I wanted to go somewhere I could throw myself into and lose myself I suppose.

Same to an extent. I wanted to go abroad for sure. But I was still applying for jobs closer to home as I knew I needed money first.

But in your early 20s you have least money of your adult life - but you also have the least family ties, the least commitments and obligations, you're most free to take a risk and just move for a job. As I say I couldn't have moved to London without benefits and I don't know what I'd do if I were a non-driving graduate now.

True to an extent. Though needs noting that though you have the freedom to potentially take a job anywhere in the world your ability to get a job anywhere in the world is far less.
Those initial years of getting the first year or two of valid experience on the CV are a struggle.

This debate is kinda ridiculous, every single economically dynamic large city (does not need to be a capital) will always vacuum up young people from its hinterland or from around its region/country or even other regions/countries. Surely it can't get too out of hand, but it's a very natural phenomenom all over the world.

I totally disagree. I think there is no point where you are more free to move anywhere than in your twenties. Normally people are less abe to decide because of family.

To be honest I think part of the drive to London is almost just that it's a rite of passage for graduates. Finish university, move to a big city with your mates.

Yeah, that happens in every single country on Earth, I'd say, except some very particular exceptions. Southern Italians move to Northern Italy, have been doing so for generations. People from all over Spain move to Madrid. Young Portuguese move to Lisbon en masse, same as young Poles move to Warsaw, and so on and so forth. It happens everywhere.

Its not unique to the UK.
Spain for example given its population spread I imagine gets this quite heavily.
But its not universal at all. In Germany, the low countries, and Switzerland at the least things tend to be far more equally spread.
Given the population density of England we really should be closer to this.

Congrats Tyr, you get the Mono Award for ridiculous perception about your own job prospects related post. You could not get a job in the whole of Europe? Give me a break.

In the midst of the financial crisis, as a fresh graduate, with zero experience, in a still niche and ill-understood field which HR still tends to think is all about visuals, and which at the time heavily relied on having a year or two of experience via unpaid internships under your belt?
Yeah. I tried for a year and failed.

[The Larch]

I won't surprise anybody by stating that Paris does to the same to "hinterland" cities up to Orléans or farther, if there is a high-speed train line (le club des villes à une heure ou deux de Paris).

Same in Madrid, every place within a 1-2 hour train ride from the city has become a suburb in almost all possible aspects, including other provincial capitals surrounding it, like Segovia, Guadalajara or Toledo.

[Syt]

Similar in Austria with Vienna.

Germany is a bit of an anomaly. Berlin is a big center, but you have Hamburg not far behind, plus Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne, Stuttgart.