Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Why would paying for the renovation of Westminster be controversial?

MPs have to vote for it. To the public it looks like they're voting to spend multiple billions on themselves/their workplace. It would be or is perceived to be politically difficult.

The amount required is stratospheric. It will surely raise eyebrows on the eve of Covid.

Yes - although they've been putting this off for the best part of 20 years and the price increases every time they delay.

[The Larch]

A new national flagship, the successor to the Royal Yacht Britannia, will promote British trade and industry around the world, Boris Johnson has said.

The vessel would be used to host trade fairs, ministerial summits and diplomatic talks as the UK seeks to build links and boost exports following Brexit.

Must be a big boat to host a trade fair. I hope they name it HMS Boaty McBoatface.

Yup, pretty large. Calling it a yatch seems to fall a bit short.

[The Larch]

Why would paying for the renovation of Westminster be controversial?

MPs have to vote for it. To the public it looks like they're voting to spend multiple billions on themselves/their workplace. It would be or is perceived to be politically difficult.

If the building is so run down I think it could be easy to simply show how the place is crumbling down and falling to pieces to make people understand that this is something that is really necessary.

And it's not as if they're going to install a jacuzzi in each MPs seat, right? I mean, it's quite ridiculous already how the place can't fit every MP if they all turn up for a session.

The amount required is stratospheric. It will surely raise eyebrows on the eve of Covid.

Yes - although they've been putting this off for the best part of 20 years and the price increases every time they delay.

So, penny wise, pound foolish kind of thinking then. They've been kicking the can down the road for so long that what could have been a small controversy at first has ballooned into a massive boondongle.

[Sheilbh]

Exactly. Not the only example of the British state being penny wise and pound foolish in putting off necessary spending until it's too late at which point it becomes an expensive crisis. And if the worst happened and there was a fire I have no doubt the public would blame them for letting it get out of hand

I think it's similar to pay rises and expenses - MPs are no longer responsible for them. There is an independent regulator they have to file reports who makes recommendations on pay increases and also approves or not expense claims. But it's still controversial every year when MPs vote to approve that regulator's recommendations because it's portrayed as them voting themselves a payrise. And there's normally some (false) image circulating on Twitter of a packed Commons of MPs voting for their pay v an empty Commons debating the NHS/education or whatever else

I think in theory moving responsibility for the management of Westminster to an independent trust would be the best solution. But I don't think it would have any impact on public perceptions of MPs spending money on themselves. And there's been documentaries/footage of the incredibly old fashioned electrical wiring hidden behind wooden panelling (), so the risks are sort of known (but they actually need to do a lot of surveys to start the work - it's not known, for example, how much asbestos is in use/needs removing).

[Tamas]

Also in what is definitely a wonderful use of money, a new national boat

I'm kind of with Duncan Weldon on this one:

Duncan Weldon
@DuncanWeldon
I'm quite in favour of a new royal yacht/flag ship/trade promotion vessel/whatever.
In the grand scheme of public spending it isn't very costly, it might do some good, it'll make a lot of people happy and it feels like the kind of thing Britain "should" probably have.
This is my most boring lukewarm take.

Yes it will be great to dazzle the other royal families of Europe and the world, and reaffirm Britain's leading place on the world oceans.

Oh wait, no, for a moment I thought it was still 1890.


Sure £200 mil is small potatoes but this is like the 5th thing you said that about in this thread Sheilbh, at some point they'll bound to add up.

[Tamas]

A new national flagship, the successor to the Royal Yacht Britannia, will promote British trade and industry around the world, Boris Johnson has said.

The vessel would be used to host trade fairs, ministerial summits and diplomatic talks as the UK seeks to build links and boost exports following Brexit.

Must be a big boat to host a trade fair. I hope they name it HMS Boaty McBoatface.

Yup, pretty large. Calling it a yatch seems to fall a bit short.

Well, for our royal family, that's a yacht, they can't possibly yacht around on anything smaller, you unwashed peasant.

[Sheilbh]

Sure £200 mil is small potatoes but this is like the 5th thing you said that about in this thread Sheilbh, at some point they'll bound to add up.

When have I ever given you the impression I care about a balanced budget

Well, for our royal family, that's a yacht, they can't possibly yacht around on anything smaller, you unwashed peasant.

Or the Norwegian royal yacht:


They're both large for what we'd consider yachts, but actually too small to be considered super-yachts

[Syt]

Well, some countries seem to have yachts as means of representative transportation for their head of state - will the Britannia be the same or will it just represent the country itself?

[Sheilbh]

Well, some countries seem to have yachts as means of representative transportation for their head of state - will the Britannia be the same or will it just represent the country itself?

No idea. The old Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia was Royal Navy. I saw it a few times when it was used to for travel by the Queen Mother and Prince Charles to their estate in the Far North - but I know it was also used for annual royal tours/holidays in the Northern and Western Isles in the UK. It was also used for Prince Charles to go to the Hong Kong handover - and to return with Chris Patten who was the last governor. It was also used for some trips to Canada and the US and I imagine elsewhere, plus things like royal honeymoons but also for sort of travelling trade expos/business events.

So I think it was a bit of both - it was for the royal family/Queen as head of state and personally but then also used as a sort of representative of Britain/state purposes (literally sailing out of Hong Kong for example). I don't think it was ever really available for use by the government of the day - so the PM didn't get to use it. I imagine it would be something similar if there was a new one, but I don't know.

Edit: Looking up the comments on this and it would be a "national flagship" not a yacht for the royal family. So it would be a normal (small) naval vessel with conference facilities rather than a luxury yacht for the royal family but also used by the state.

[The Brain]

I think it's similar to pay rises and expenses - MPs are no longer responsible for them. There is an independent regulator they have to file reports who makes recommendations on pay increases and also approves or not expense claims. But it's still controversial every year when MPs vote to approve that regulator's recommendations because it's portrayed as them voting themselves a payrise. And there's normally some (false) image circulating on Twitter of a packed Commons of MPs voting for their pay v an empty Commons debating the NHS/education or whatever else

In my book, if you don't trust MPs to decide something as trivial as their own pay maybe you shouldn't let them run the country.

[Tonitrus]

Just put the Crown in charge of setting politician's pay. 

[Syt]

I really feel Shelf should break this happy news to you guys, but he's probably gone to bed so I'll have to do the honours:

Boris Johnson has married is nth wife in a private ceremony at the low key location of Westminster Cathedral.

Apparently hardly anyone in Westminster knew about this event.

[Sheilbh]

I hate that dress - but it does explain the questionable wallpaper decisions

Very posh early-30s English taste.

[Josquius]

T

The key point that stands out for me is no other country has one.
You have to figure there's a reason for this.

Other than Denmark and Norway, for example, who both have Royal Yachts that serve much the same function Britannia did?

There's a few others around as well.

It was a disgrace Britannia was not replaced back when she was originally retired.

As to Westminster.... Yes. Move them elswhere. Nottingham would be a good shout. Even temporarily its helpful though I'd say in the long term this should be done too. London is the capital of everything else so let's have the political capital elswhere.

They need to move temporarily, but I doubt Nottingham has the infrastructure for it.

Symbolically it ought to be either Edinburgh or Winchester for the temporary move (Edinburgh being more appropriate for the British symbolism, Winchester for the English.) But the first option seems to be unthinkable, the second equally so but with infrastructure issues as well.

If they do shift anywhere it will most likely be elsewhere in London - with Birmingham or Manchester as outside bets.

Of course, if my opinion meant anything it would be Edinburgh.

The BBC is reporting, quoting Alex Johnson, that no other nation had this.
It's a non issue for me so I didn't check, the BBC usually gets basic stuff like that right.

It's a disgrace Britania wasn't replaced? Wut?
I really don't understand why this is remotely an issue for some people. It has rule of cool but... The royal train has more of that. And it's equally unnecessary.

Winchester would be an awful move. Worse than London on a lot of metrics other than technically being outside of London, albeit to the minimum possible degree. Edinburgh could work. Cardiff might have the infrastructure too.

Nottingham stands out to me as a good choice for still being in the south and towards the centre of population in the country (and the pinhead balance centre) but also closer to the north and the other nations.
Around about that area in general works. Birmingham lacks class but I suppose is possible.

[Zanza]

Germany has a tall ship that is used to train naval officers and to represent Germany abroad. Matching the rest of our armed forces it has been in dock since 2015.