Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Makes more sense.

What's the opposition to ID cards based on? Or rather, what's included in the concept "ID cards" in UK discourse? In Sweden people use driver's licence, passport, ID card, or online an app called BankID. ID cards are not mandatory, and many people do not have them.

There's a few arguments - the underlying information would need some sort of IT infrastructure and we are bad at IT infrastructure, the estimated costs were about £20billion for the scheme proposed by New Labour. There's not really been much of a case made for why it's necessary. There's been polling that shows minority groups are especially opposed to it, probably because experience of and trust in government is worse in those communities. The Information Commissioner at that time expressed a lot of concerns about the amount of information about individuals that would be collected or put in one place. And I think there was a lot of fear that it would end up with feature creep so it became essential in daily life.

All of which added up to a general civil libertarian fear of sleepwalking into a surveillance society. It's all information the government have but it's probably best if they don't have it all in one place.

[The Brain]

Makes more sense.

What's the opposition to ID cards based on? Or rather, what's included in the concept "ID cards" in UK discourse? In Sweden people use driver's licence, passport, ID card, or online an app called BankID. ID cards are not mandatory, and many people do not have them.

There's a few arguments - the underlying information would need some sort of IT infrastructure and we are bad at IT infrastructure, the estimated costs were about £20billion for the scheme proposed by New Labour. There's not really been much of a case made for why it's necessary. There's been polling that shows minority groups are especially opposed to it, probably because experience of and trust in government is worse in those communities. The Information Commissioner at that time expressed a lot of concerns about the amount of information about individuals that would be collected or put in one place. And I think there was a lot of fear that it would end up with feature creep so it became essential in daily life.

All of which added up to a general civil libertarian fear of sleepwalking into a surveillance society. It's all information the government have but it's probably best if they don't have it all in one place.

Thanks. Makes sense to me to keep any British government away from major undertakings as much as at all possible.

[Tamas]

Which method do Brits normally use to prove their identity?

Driving licence.


Debit card.

No really.

[The Brain]

Which method do Brits normally use to prove their identity?

Driving licence.


Debit card.

No really.

Debit card? Yes really?

[Josquius]

Utility bill.
Which is becoming hard these days.

My partner had a nightmare opening a bank account in the UK as it demanded ID and proof of address... But proof of address wasn't possible without a bank account

[Sheilbh]

I always find proof of address most difficult - especially because for a long time places hadn't adapted to the idea of going paperless. So even with a bank account they wouldn't accept me printing off a statement - I needed to get the bank to send me something.

Things seem to have got better in terms of them understanding that many people don't actually get mailed bills anymore.

[The Brain]

How do you ID yourselves online? When doing taxes or renewing prescriptions or what have you?

[Sheilbh]

How do you ID yourselves online? When doing taxes or renewing prescriptions or what have you?

I've never had to do taxes (always just PAYE) - I don't know. I know that everyone has a National Insurance number and everyone has an HMRC number so I assume you use one of them.

For prescriptions I have an online account and I just log on to order new prescriptions. I think the doctor sent me an access code that I needed to create my account - but that's just my GP so things'll be different for others.

I mean I also don't pay for prescriptions because I pay a monthly charge instead for a pre-payment card but that never gets checked either.

[Tamas]

How do you ID yourselves online? When doing taxes or renewing prescriptions or what have you?

IIRC I registered on some government website recently using my name and my national insurance number. Neither are exactly top secret.


Oh on proof of address, apparently driving licences have addresses, so funnily enough the STATE OPRESSION that you avoid by not having ID and address cards, you voluntarily submit yourself to if you want to drive a car.

It really is just silly. There is so much extra pain trying to run a modern life without a national ID system. And for what? It's not like you don't end up sharing all kinds of personal details just to have a semblance of a non-medieval lifestyle. It's just more complicated this way.

[Sheilbh]

Oh on proof of address, apparently driving licences have addresses, so funnily enough the STATE OPRESSION that you avoid by not having ID and address cards, you voluntarily submit yourself to if you want to drive a car.

It really is just silly. There is so much extra pain trying to run a modern life without a national ID system. And for what? It's not like you don't end up sharing all kinds of personal details just to have a semblance of a non-medieval lifestyle. It's just more complicated this way.

Yes but it's not all on one central database that the government and all of its agencies have access to and input to (also the risk of ID fraud is far higher if you're always relying on one document/repository).  As I say they probably have all this information but it's not all in one place which makes it more difficult.

[Richard Hakluyt]

When I was young there were many black and white war movies on the television. Many of these focussed on plucky British prisoners of war trying to escape Nazi Germany. Documents and ID were usually forged by a lovable cockney with a slightly dodgy "job" in civvy street. The escapees would have their documents scrutinised by some ghastly Nazi bastard as they tried to make their way back to Blighty. It could get very tense.

I think, for British people over the age of 60, ID and "papers" are still associated with continental despotism 

[Sheilbh]

I think, for British people over the age of 60, ID and "papers" are still associated with continental despotism 

Yeah I think there is a cultural suspicion of having papers because it does mean someone could ask for them - you have to identify yourself to a policeman ("your papers please") or some state functionary

[Josquius]

What I always found so bizzare and painful about it all is that the same people who were so utterly against the ID card proposals are those who are the biggest whingers about immigration, especially of the illegal variety.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I've shown my ID whilst abroad of course. I will never ever show my ID to a British cop.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Unless charged with a criminal offence of course.