Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

The idea of the Brexit supporters that the EU would somehow, out of enlightened economic interests, give the British a good trade deal is folly. They should have known better considering their own motivations were mainly political, not economic. And they'll find that their counterparts in Europe are also mainly motivated by politics, not economics. And that suggests we can expect a nasty divorce.

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

It's not so simple. Just as it was politically profitable for the Brexit-side politicians to be complete asshats and ruin their country, it will be politically very profitable for a lot of EUrocrats to be pushing for harsh terms for the UK.

Not to mention that I think in a lot of issues there are very tough economic interests behind screwing Britain over (disbanding London as a financial hub in particular).

[garbon]

The idea of the Brexit supporters that the EU would somehow, out of enlightened economic interests, give the British a good trade deal is folly. They should have known better considering their own motivations were mainly political, not economic. And they'll find that their counterparts in Europe are also mainly motivated by politics, not economics. And that suggests we can expect a nasty divorce.

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

It's not so simple. Just as it was politically profitable for the Brexit-side politicians to be complete asshats and ruin their country, it will be politically very profitable for a lot of EUrocrats to be pushing for harsh terms for the UK.

Not to mention that I think in a lot of issues there are very tough economic interests behind screwing Britain over (disbanding London as a financial hub in particular).

If the EU is so easily blown about by the national interests of it individual members (for local political gain) - perhaps it is an organization worth killing.

edit: Well maybe nothing so rash...but not something worth actively preserving.

[Zanza]

If the EU is so easily blown about by the national interests of it individual members (for local political gain) - perhaps it is an organization worth killing.

No

[Iormlund]

If the EU is so easily blown about by the national interests of it individual members...

Heh, I thought its problem was being an unstoppable behemoth in the way of national sovereignty.

[garbon]

If the EU is so easily blown about by the national interests of it individual members...

Heh, I thought its problem was being an unstoppable behemoth in the way of national sovereignty.

I'm not a Brit nor some who is a fan of exit.

[Valmy]

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

Once the flag of nationalism gets brought out everybody is going to grab theirs as well.

[viper37]

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

Once the flag of nationalism gets brought out everybody is going to grab theirs as well.

because otherwise, there is no competition at all between countries, communities, cities, state, etc.  All depends on nationalism, the most evil of all evils.  But patriotism is fine.  Once or twice per generation you get embroiled in foreign war with no exit plan and destabilize an entire region, but aside that, all is fine.  It's not like anti-immigrant rethoric would brew in such a context, anyway.

[Valmy]

because otherwise, there is no competition at all between countries, communities, cities, state, etc.  All depends on nationalism, the most evil of all evils.  But patriotism is fine.  Once or twice per generation you get embroiled in foreign war with no exit plan and destabilize an entire region, but aside that, all is fine.  It's not like anti-immigrant rethoric would brew in such a context, anyway.

WTF are you talking about?

[garbon]

because otherwise, there is no competition at all between countries, communities, cities, state, etc.  All depends on nationalism, the most evil of all evils.  But patriotism is fine.  Once or twice per generation you get embroiled in foreign war with no exit plan and destabilize an entire region, but aside that, all is fine.  It's not like anti-immigrant rethoric would brew in such a context, anyway.

WTF are you talking about?

Some random attack on America.

[garbon]

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

Once the flag of nationalism gets brought out everybody is going to grab theirs as well.

That's a shame as it really just throws the EU in the mud.

[Jacob]

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

Once the flag of nationalism gets brought out everybody is going to grab theirs as well.

That's a shame as it really just throws the EU in the mud.

I don't see how the EU is under any obligation to be nice to UK during the Brexit negotiations. They ought - I think - to pursue the interests of the EU as a whole first, and the interests of the individual members second (though of course the interests of the EU as a whole is simply the aggregate balance of the interests of the individual members as a whole).

There's no reasonable argument for the EU to be indulgent towards an exiting UK beyond hypothetical EU self-interest... and if EU self interest points towards harsh terms, that's entirely reasonable IMO.

Personally I'd prefer an amicable, low-impact divorce, of course.

[Josquius]

Obligation to be nice.... there is the human factor.
We are EU citizens and this is happening to us against the will of 3/4 or the country.

[Jacob]

Obligation to be nice.... there is the human factor.
We are EU citizens and this is happening to us against the will of 3/4 or the country.

It seems exceedingly unlikely for something like that to pass - besides, if the EU negotiating team offer any kind of concessions because of the human factor or other such sentiments, you can guarantee that the Brexit crowd will take it as proof of their awesome they are and continue to shit on the EU... so why do it?

I mean, there's no need to be unreasonable or anything, but it's a negotiation - triggered by the UK - so expect a negotiation. And in a negotiation you represent your own interests and the interests of your constituent parties, not those of the people sitting on the other side of the table.

[garbon]

So because UK acted petulant first, EU should too?

Once the flag of nationalism gets brought out everybody is going to grab theirs as well.

That's a shame as it really just throws the EU in the mud.

I don't see how the EU is under any obligation to be nice to UK during the Brexit negotiations. They ought - I think - to pursue the interests of the EU as a whole first, and the interests of the individual members second (though of course the interests of the EU as a whole is simply the aggregate balance of the interests of the individual members as a whole).

There's no reasonable argument for the EU to be indulgent towards an exiting UK beyond hypothetical EU self-interest... and if EU self interest points towards harsh terms, that's entirely reasonable IMO.

Personally I'd prefer an amicable, low-impact divorce, of course.

I think at least some here have pointed out that hard Brexit might be in short term political interests but not really in longer term interests of the EU. Doing what makes you feel good about yourselves is perhaps not the best way for a political union to be run.

After all, look at the UK.

[garbon]

Obligation to be nice.... there is the human factor.
We are EU citizens and this is happening to us against the will of 3/4 or the country.

It seems exceedingly unlikely for something like that to pass - besides, if the EU negotiating team offer any kind of concessions because of the human factor or other such sentiments, you can guarantee that the Brexit crowd will take it as proof of their awesome they are and continue to shit on the EU... so why do it?

I mean, there's no need to be unreasonable or anything, but it's a negotiation - triggered by the UK - so expect a negotiation. And in a negotiation you represent your own interests and the interests of your constituent parties, not those of the people sitting on the other side of the table.

Won't the Brexit crowd continue to shit on the EU regardless? It isn't like their whole wanting Brexit was triggered by rational decision making.