Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[alfred russel]

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

Is that so different than Russia Today?

Extremely different. Russia does publish straight propaganda entities similar to Radio Free Europe but those are insignificant and not a problem at all. That kind of thing I expect.

So what is the nefarious stuff they are doing? Posting obnoxious comments beneath Yahoo articles?

There are accusations of worse, but how much has been proven?

[Threviel]

Yeah, countries have been meddling since forever. The difference is that western society doesn't seem to have an answer or any countermeasures.
As I understand it many if the tools used during the cold war has been dismantled.

How? I want an example of equivalent things in the past because right now it is like 'oh yes once a newspaper said something about an election which is exactly the same' which is not very convincing. You guys seem to be really stretching to find this kind of systematic disinformation campaign along with personal blackmail of politicians along with bribes as equivalent to little Jimmy from Birmingham once saying he hoped the SPD would a few seats in Hamburg. I mean In know that is what Putin's propaganda always says, that nothing he ever does isn't anything that the is not standard procedure across the entire world, but I don't buy it.

It's not just that the west and the Soviet Union did the same thing against each other. It's that during the cold war there was a general knowledge that Russia would do propaganda and disinformation. Everything that came from the eastern bloc was critically analyzed by a population that knew that they were the enemy. 30 years of laughing at clown Russia has removed that feeling and made us seriously under-estimate them at the same time that new technology enables them to reach new audiences in new ways.

[Valmy]

So what is the nefarious stuff they are doing? Posting obnoxious comments beneath Yahoo articles?

There are accusations of worse, but how much has been proven?

Ah. Ok I get it. We do not agree on the basic facts of the situation. That makes me feel much better about how this conversation has gone.

I think they are using a small army of paid internet trolls who pretend to be locals, who aim to spread misinformation and confusion and discredit existing institutions. I think they are creating fake media to help do so. I think they are paying off and blackmailing politicians. Now as far as how much of that I can prove...well I have a shitload of work to do, both professionally and in my private life, so it is logistically impossible for me to do so. I waste too much time posting here as it is. But, just to clarify things, this is what I am talking bout not the RT stuff. I don't know if our system of government can function once every other country in the world imitates these tactics, as they surely will shortly.

But it could be that you are correct and all the Russians are doing is just publishing RT.com and a few other obviously and clearly Russian propaganda organs and in that case I am mistaken.

[alfred russel]

I think they are using a small army of paid internet trolls who pretend to be locals, who aim to spread misinformation and confusion and discredit existing institutions.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think this is:
1) absolutely happening, and
2) absolutely ridiculous.

I was just reading a yahoo article on Russia v. Spain, and went down to check the comments. Mostly because it I knew how amusing it would be. And sure enough, most of the comments are congratulating Putin for his great leadership, etc. I assume they are mostly Russian trolls. But how ridiculous is that? The Russian government sponsoring fake accounts to compliment itself in a foreign language and a foreign country, after winning a soccer game on penalties?

they are creating fake media to help do so.

Again, maybe I'm naïve; languish is 100% of my social media. But I'm bombarded with legit media. Aside from Syt's sisters, I don't know that I come across much of this stuff, and what I do see seems really dumb.

I think they are paying off and blackmailing politicians.

Isn't this classic espionage?

Valmy--I wasn't asking you to prove anything, btw. It was more regarding what has been proven, rather than rumors and accusations.

The defense of the Russian government that I have a hard time getting past is that they are underfunded, ridiculous, and incompetent.

[frunk]

Again, maybe I'm naïve; languish is 100% of my social media. But I'm bombarded with legit media. Aside from Syt's sisters, I don't know that I come across much of this stuff, and what I do see seems really dumb.

Social media can be very precisely targeted.  If you aren't in that group you won't see any sign of it.  It's not like old school advertising where even if you never wanted a car you'd see tons of car ads.

[Valmy]

The defense of the Russian government that I have a hard time getting past is that they are underfunded, ridiculous, and incompetent.

In most things yes...but they have a history of being pretty good at this sort of thing.

[grumbler]

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

Is that so different than Russia Today?

RFE was explicitly a US government operation.  RT doesn't disclose that it is a Russian government operation (though a viewer/listener can find out without much digging).

[Josquius]

There is pretty convincing evidence that the Russians are indeed doing this stuff.
They of course reply with their snide grin of "You can prove nothing. It is not true".
One example I recall:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-jones-pro-brexit-ukip-twitter-account-russia-fake-bot-troll-trump-disinformation-followers-a7920181.html

[The Minsky Moment]

Radio Free Europe was about providing truthful information to people who lived in countries where news was heavily censored.

The Russian propaganda/manipulation operation is about providing false information to people who live in free countries to subvert that freedom.

So other than being government backed organizations disseminating information, they are basically the opposite.

RFE probably saved lives broadcasting the truth about Chernobyl when the Soviet state media sought to supress and cover up.  It's insulting to compare it to the informational excrement coming from Russia these days.

[alfred russel]

RFE probably saved lives broadcasting the truth about Chernobyl when the Soviet state media sought to supress and cover up.  It's insulting to compare it to the informational excrement coming from Russia these days.

Does it cover the white house press briefings?

[The Minsky Moment]

Trump's lies don't count. He is just another conduit for Russian propaganda.

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/03/brexit-business-says-government-indecision-leading-to-significant-slowdown-in-investment-politics-live?page=with:block-5b3b9332e4b074b33454f8ab#block-5b3b9332e4b074b33454f8ab

Unite says it is 'open to possibility' of 2nd Brexit referendum and Labour 'highly unlikely' to back May's deal

At its policy conference in Brighton the Unite union, Labour most important financial backer, has just approved an executive statement on Brexit. It is potentially very significant.

Here is the key extract.

From manufacturing to finance, services and transport, a cliff-edge Brexit would jeopardise the livelihood of millions of working people and must be avoided at all costs. Unite has lobbied for and welcomed amendments to the withdrawal bill which secured a meaningful vote for Parliament to avoid this outcome, and will continue to work for such a process.

However, it remains highly unlikely that the final EU-UK Brexit deal due to come to parliament in the autumn 2018 will satisfy the criteria that Unite and the wider labour movement, including the Labour front bench with its six tests which must be met, have set.

At such a moment Unite will mobilise against the deal. Our priority will be to force an early general election which can lead to the election of a Labour government which would, among other things, reach a better deal with the European Union and improved relations with Europe all round. We are also open to the possibility of a popular vote being held on any deal, depending on political circumstances. Within these principles, the executive council has authority to respond as it thinks best to a fast-changing political situation.

[The Brain]

Hasn't the UK had enough referenda? A referendum on a deal would just risk bringing about a no-deal, which would surely be worse than any deal.

[Josquius]

Hasn't the UK had enough referenda? A referendum on a deal would just risk bringing about a no-deal, which would surely be worse than any deal.

Only if we let Mogg write the referendum.
If someone sensible does it no will mean leave things as they are/back to the drawing board.

[The Brain]

Hasn't the UK had enough referenda? A referendum on a deal would just risk bringing about a no-deal, which would surely be worse than any deal.

Only if we let Mogg write the referendum.
If someone sensible does it no will mean leave things as they are/back to the drawing board.

Things are a no-deal today. If the UK manages to negotiate a deal with the EU and it fails a referendum then it seems optimistic to me to start negotiating a new deal and hope to finish it (including a new referendum) before Brexit Day. Especially if Brits expect the new deal to be better than the first...