Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[alfred russel]

This is the brexit thread...Obama lobbied for the uk to pass on brexit and arguably threatened them with difficulty in getting a trade deal with the us if brexit came to pass.

[Threviel]

Yeah, countries have been meddling since forever. The difference is that western society doesn't seem to have an answer or any countermeasures.
As I understand it many if the tools used during the cold war has been dismantled.

[Valmy]

Yeah, countries have been meddling since forever. The difference is that western society doesn't seem to have an answer or any countermeasures.
As I understand it many if the tools used during the cold war has been dismantled.

How? I want an example of equivalent things in the past because right now it is like 'oh yes once a newspaper said something about an election which is exactly the same' which is not very convincing. You guys seem to be really stretching to find this kind of systematic disinformation campaign along with personal blackmail of politicians along with bribes as equivalent to little Jimmy from Birmingham once saying he hoped the SPD would a few seats in Hamburg. I mean In know that is what Putin's propaganda always says, that nothing he ever does isn't anything that the is not standard procedure across the entire world, but I don't buy it.

[alfred russel]

Valmy, I think probably the biggest Russian operation is Russia today, which obviously has significant analogues such as radio free Europe.

It is tough not to remember things like Allende as well.

[The Brain]

Yeah, countries have been meddling since forever. The difference is that western society doesn't seem to have an answer or any countermeasures.
As I understand it many if the tools used during the cold war has been dismantled.

How? I want an example of equivalent things in the past because right now it is like 'oh yes once a newspaper said something about an election which is exactly the same' which is not very convincing. You guys seem to be really stretching to find this kind of systematic disinformation campaign along with personal blackmail of politicians along with bribes as equivalent to little Jimmy from Birmingham once saying he hoped the SPD would a few seats in Hamburg. I mean In know that is what Putin's propaganda always says, that nothing he ever does isn't anything that the is not standard procedure across the entire world, but I don't buy it.

Systematic disinformation, personal blackmail of politicians, bribes? The past pages I at least have been discussing the Mr. Banks article that Syt posted.

[Josquius]

This is the brexit thread...Obama lobbied for the uk to pass on brexit and arguably threatened them with difficulty in getting a trade deal with the us if brexit came to pass.

Obama spoke out as himself stating his view and the facts as he saw them.
Had putin done the same that would be fine.
Instead they were far more underhand.

[Tamas]

Yeah, countries have been meddling since forever. The difference is that western society doesn't seem to have an answer or any countermeasures.
As I understand it many if the tools used during the cold war has been dismantled.

How? I want an example of equivalent things in the past because right now it is like 'oh yes once a newspaper said something about an election which is exactly the same' which is not very convincing. You guys seem to be really stretching to find this kind of systematic disinformation campaign along with personal blackmail of politicians along with bribes as equivalent to little Jimmy from Birmingham once saying he hoped the SPD would a few seats in Hamburg. I mean In know that is what Putin's propaganda always says, that nothing he ever does isn't anything that the is not standard procedure across the entire world, but I don't buy it.

You are trying to do the wrong comparison.

The comparison is valid in the definition of countries spending money and resources to influence foreign politics toward their own interests.

The big and decisive difference is that for the West this means supporting movements and agendas focused on personal freedom and freedom of enterprise, while in the case of Russia it means sponsoring whatever seems like the most divisive and disruptive.

[Valmy]

Valmy, I think probably the biggest Russian operation is Russia today, which obviously has significant analogues such as radio free Europe.

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

It is tough not to remember things like Allende as well.

A military coup the US knew about and didn't prevent (or maybe even helped a bit...the record is not very clear). Maybe if it was some sort of full scale blitz to create opposition to Allende where there was none sure, but that coup was going to happen whether we were there or not, but we could have stopped it and we didn't. That is not quite the same thing.

[Valmy]

You are trying to do the wrong comparison.

The comparison is valid in the definition of countries spending money and resources to influence foreign politics toward their own interests.

The big and decisive difference is that for the West this means supporting movements and agendas focused on personal freedom and freedom of enterprise, while in the case of Russia it means sponsoring whatever seems like the most divisive and disruptive.

Yeah. The Russians (and probably many other people now that it showed it can work) are just breaking shit and causing chaos not trying to convince us that this or that party is what we should be supporting. That seems new and very dangerous. I am not even sure how to appropriately counter-act it without authoritarian type measures.

[Tamas]

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

No, it was THE non-Soviet approved news source for half of Europe.

[alfred russel]

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

Is that so different than Russia Today?

[frunk]

Is that so different than Russia Today?

RT isn't really the problem.  If it was just RT nobody would be complaining.  Russia sponsoring individuals and hijacking social media without the targets of the campaign knowing the source can more easily delude people.

[Josquius]

My hope- Brazil and France absolutely kill themselves to win the semi between them seeing it as the true final.
Winner falls to whoever fluffs their way through to the final.

[Valmy]

Radio Free Europe was not posing as anything other than what it was, American slanted news you could get access to.

Is that so different than Russia Today?

Extremely different. Russia does publish straight propaganda entities similar to Radio Free Europe but those are insignificant and not a problem at all. That kind of thing I expect.

[Valmy]

My hope- Brazil and France absolutely kill themselves to win the semi between them seeing it as the true final.
Winner falls to whoever fluffs their way through to the final.

France will be energized from their great victory and crush Russia in the final. Vive La France!