Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Corbyn is a dinosaur.
This sort of old school Marxist blue collar protectionalist socialism... It just doesn't work in modern day post industrial Britain. That ship has sailed.

It is a big shame the current lib dem leader is a rather anonymous quasi homophobe. If only the lib dems of 7 years ago were around today.

They could collaborate with the Tories?

Nah.
With trying to keep the country afloat amongst the financial crisis its understandable they went that way (though mucked it up massively).
With brexit though, no way would they do such a thing.

[Jacob]

And what the fuck is Johnson going on about? If Britain didn't want to set own standards and tariffs then what's the point of leaving the single market... 

Domestic political advantage via nationalist rhetoric.

... and it's worked out pretty well for them, with the Brexit Tories in government and labour in shambles.

[Razgovory]

Very few communists can say they have ruined their own country without ever getting close to power.

I blame this ahole for the Leave win.

And you should. He is a great enemy of Liberalism.

Corbyn is the enemy everything.  He's like a gentile Bernie Sanders.

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/01/lords-defeat-government-over-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk-brexit-bill

Lords defeat government over rights of EU citizens in UK

Theresa May has suffered a heavy defeat in the House of Lords after peers voted by 358 votes to 256 in favour of an amendment calling on the government to secure the rights of EU citizens in the UK.

A number of Conservatives including the former cabinet minister Douglas Hogg lined up with Labour, Lib Dems and crossbench peers to demand formal reassurance to more than 3 million Europeans already resident in Britain.

The Lords did not go as far as calling for immediate, unilateral action but said ministers should be made to set out proposals about how they would protect citizens and their families within three months of article 50 being triggered.

The decision forces the government's Brexit bill into a process of ping-pong between the Houses of Commons and Lords, delaying its passage into law by at least one week until 14 March.

Conservative MPs will now face intense lobbying over the issue as campaigners try to persuade them to inflict an unlikely further defeat in the House of Commons.

Labour's Brexit spokeswoman in the Lords, Lady Hayter, opened up the debate, claiming the government had the power to act now over the issue, saying: "In 1985, my noble friend Lord Kinnock had to say to his own party: 'You can't play politics with people's jobs.'

"I now want to say to the government: you can't do negotiations with people's futures."

She was backed by a number of high-profile peers including the previous Lib Dem leader, Lord Campbell, the former head of the civil service, Lord Kerslake and the former lord chief justice, Lord Woolf.

Viscount Hailsham (Douglas Hogg) was the most high profile Conservative to back the amendment, laid down by the Labour frontbench but formally backed by Tories, Lib Dems and crossbenchers.

He said denying European citizens the right to remain in Britain could face legal challenge, but also said it was a matter of principle.

"On Monday I was lunching in the dining room in the House of Commons, where I was meeting staff whom I have known for very many years. And one of the waitresses came up to me and she said: 'What is going to happen to me when Brexit takes place?' She was born in France but has worked in the United Kingdom, has been in the House of Commons, for very many years.

"I gave her my personal opinion, which was that there would be no problem for her, but I was not able to give her the guarantee that I think she was entitled to deserve."

He reminded the House of Lords about the shock when Idi Amin expelled the Asians from Uganda, causing the British government to offer them refuge in this country.

But while there was some unexpected backing for the amendment, there was also some unlikely backing for the government on the issue.

The Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, said that he was one of the people who had left Uganda under Amin because of his opposition to policy, "so I know how minorities can feel".

But he insisted this was a "simple bill" only about triggering article 50 and that it was unnecessary to amend it in this way.

He said the legislation was "a race about to start – on your marks, get set bang". "Then they take off and it will take two years to run this race and during the running of the race we want to make sure concerns come back," he said.

Other supporters of the government included the former Tory leader Lord Howard, who argued that the best option to end the uncertainty was to "pass this bill as quickly as possible and to activate article 50 as quickly as possible".

Lord Strathclyde added that the amendment could put at risk the needs of British people living abroad.

But the prime minister, who does not have a majority in the Lords, was easily beaten despite a last-minute effort by Amber Rudd to reassure peers about the government's intentions on the issue.

She insisted there was no question of treating European citizens with "anything other than the utmost respect", and said their status would be top priority in EU negotiations.

The minister also warned that a unilateral act could seem well-meaning but could leave British people living abroad "facing two years of uncertainty if any urgency to resolve their status were removed by the UK making a one-sided guarantee".

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In the Lords huge numbers disagreed on the issue. Kerslake said the government's argument that an offer to EU citizens would weaken its hand in European negotiations was questionable.

"However you think about that argument it is using them as bargaining chips."

Lord Bowness, a Conservative peer, said no one would believe that Britain would remove EU nationals living here, so it was pointless to pretend otherwise.

The Lib Dem Lord Newby said the pressure would now turn to the House of Commons, arguing that peers had already seen a huge amount of lobbying on the issue.

"I suspect that as often happens the pressure builds up as bills go through parliament in terms of lobbying – we've had more lobbying in recent days.

"That is the only way we are going to succeed. The prime minisiter won't change her mind, she is totally fixated by this and is a very stubborn person."

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, will argue that May is becoming increasingly isolated on the issue, as he prepares to back the amendment in the Commons.

But Tory backbenchers who supported remain told the Guardian that they did not believe May would be defeated. The prime minister knows that public opinion is mixed on the issue.

A recent Guardian/ICM poll found that 41% believed the government should guarantee the rights of EU nationals now because it is the right thing to do, but 42% supported the government position to wait for protections for British people lving abroad.

The move in the Lords was unusual as peers rarely force a vote when bills are in their committee stage. However, Rudd's letter made clear that the government was not ready to concede on the issue.

Other amendments around a meaningful vote on the final Brexit deal and the issues facing the devolved governments will be debated but could be voted on next week, at the bill's report stage.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Amazingly generous and idealistic comments from Verhofstadt on the rights of UK citizens as Europeans post-brexit :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39228245

[The Larch]

Amazingly generous and idealistic comments from Verhofstadt on the rights of UK citizens as Europeans post-brexit :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39228245

I don't think anyone in the EU really wants to strip UK citizens of their EU rights, that would be a super easy thing to settle already to give peace of mind to thousands of people if the UK government didn't want to insist on it being a bargaining chip for the negotiations.

[jimmy olsen]

Very few communists can say they have ruined their own country without ever getting close to power.

I blame this ahole for the Leave win.

And you should. He is a great enemy of Liberalism.

Corbyn is the enemy everything.  He's like a gentile Bernie Sanders.

Bullshit, Corbyn is way to the left of Sanders.

[celedhring]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

@Larch

If I'm reading it correctly though, Verhofstadt is suggesting that UK citizens currently still living in the UK would be able to apply for their EU rights. So, for example, if I get sick of Northern dark winters as I continue to age, then in 10 years time (once UK has left the EU) I can still move to some more pleasant climate in the EU south.

On the more restricted point of protecting the rights of EU citizens currently living in the UK and vice versa both sides need to stop playing games and guarantee continued residence asap.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

I think it is statesmanlike. So UK citizens continue to be EU citizens even though their local government has been hijacked by evil secessionists, it is the sort of enlightened thinking that could subvert (or make temporary) the entire brexit process.

[Tamas]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

I think it is statesmanlike. So UK citizens continue to be EU citizens even though their local government has been hijacked by evil secessionists, it is the sort of enlightened thinking that could subvert (or make temporary) the entire brexit process.

I think such a gesture would be an enlightened and positive thing that, well, pretty much the whole world of politics need badly nowadays. So I hope it'll be done.

However, I am not looking forward to the gleeful "told you so we can have it all regardless" comments from the Daily Mail crowd.

[Josquius]

Even aside from it being awesome for me personally this EU citizenship for Brits who want it, detached from national citizenship, is a very interesting prospect. A big step forward in making de jure the world's move away from nation states.

I wonder to what extent the British / Irish situation could be something to learn from- Brits and Irish in each other's countries even pre EU being legally treat mostly the same as citizens of those countries. A legacy of the divorce.

[The Larch]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

That would be enlightened indeed, but it should ideally be a two way street. In a cold minded negotiating mindset it might not be advisable to do it if there are no assurances that it'd be reciprocated. At the very very least people already living and/or working abroad should be grandfathered in.

[Josquius]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

That would be enlightened indeed, but it should ideally be a two way street. In a cold minded negotiating mindset it might not be advisable to do it if there are no assurances that it'd be reciprocated. At the very very least people already living and/or working abroad should be grandfathered in.

There's a lot of talk about this and it sits uneasily with me.
For people who are fully settled in another EU country then fair enough. They totally deserve not to have their lives utterly destroyed.
But then there's people like me and the majority of Poles in the UK. People who are just working abroad as its where the opportunities are at the moment. We don't intend to stay there forever however we might possibly want to live abroad, and not necessarily in the same country, in the future.
So...I should be making sure I'm in Germany or another plentiful opportunity country when brexit hits?


Reading what he says it sounds really good. That he recognises our government has become insane but that Brits as EU citizens don't  deserve to be fucked over along with our government.
You can put an evil pragmatic spin on it really- make sure the British economy gets hit hard in key areas, and then let the other EU nations take in skilled Brits looking for work.

[The Larch]

I think that what Verfhostadt wants is for UK citizens to retain EU citizenship status post-Brexit. He hinted at that already months ago.

That would be enlightened, but might make us look a bit like suckers. UK would get to have their cake and eat it. 

That would be enlightened indeed, but it should ideally be a two way street. In a cold minded negotiating mindset it might not be advisable to do it if there are no assurances that it'd be reciprocated. At the very very least people already living and/or working abroad should be grandfathered in.

There's a lot of talk about this and it sits uneasily with me.
For people who are fully settled in another EU country then fair enough. They totally deserve not to have their lives utterly destroyed.
But then there's people like me and the majority of Poles in the UK. People who are just working abroad as its where the opportunities are at the moment. We don't intend to stay there forever however we might possibly want to live abroad, and not necessarily in the same country, in the future.
So...I should be making sure I'm in Germany or another plentiful opportunity country when brexit hits?


Reading what he says it sounds really good. That he recognises our government has become insane but that Brits as EU citizens don't  deserve to be fucked over along with our government.
You can put an evil pragmatic spin on it really- make sure the British economy gets hit hard in key areas, and then let the other EU nations take in skilled Brits looking for work.

There are lots of ways in which this could shape up. Of course the ideal situation would be that all UK peeps can continue enjoying freedom to live, work and move around the EU, and the other way around, regardless of their situation at the moment Brexit is finalized, and at the very least the ones already abroad should be able to continue to do so. I'm sure that other EU countries would not have any problems extending these rights to UK citizens after Brexit, as long as it's reciprocated, but I don't see May doing that, as preventing other EU citizens from moving to the UK was one of the main motivations for the Leavers.