Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-uk-formally-confirms-to-eu-that-it-wont-extend-transition-period-12005296

Brexit: UK 'formally confirms' to EU that it won't extend transition period


OMFG PROJECT FEAR

The government has also confirmed that it has scrapped plans to immediately introduce full import controls on EU goods in the new year.

[Sheilbh]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-uk-formally-confirms-to-eu-that-it-wont-extend-transition-period-12005296

Brexit: UK 'formally confirms' to EU that it won't extend transition period


OMFG PROJECT FEAR

They were pretty explicit about this in 2019 and won an 80 seat majority - and then legislated against an extension (which hasn't been repealed).

I've mentioned before but it does amaze me how the Brexiteers have managed to transform "soft Brexit" (in the referendum, staying in the EEA) to having a deal and "hard Brexit" (in the referendum, leaving the single market) to leaving with no deal. But there we are - they've been politically better at this for the past 4 years and to be honest I think it's kind of extraordinary that despite the last 3-4 years the remain/pro-European camp haven't managed to extend their base. I feel like everyone involved should be banned from politics because they're clearly bad at it.

[Tamas]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-uk-formally-confirms-to-eu-that-it-wont-extend-transition-period-12005296

Brexit: UK 'formally confirms' to EU that it won't extend transition period


OMFG PROJECT FEAR

They were pretty explicit about this in 2019 and won an 80 seat majority - and then legislated against an extension (which hasn't been repealed).

I've mentioned before but it does amaze me how the Brexiteers have managed to transform "soft Brexit" (in the referendum, staying in the EEA) to having a deal and "hard Brexit" (in the referendum, leaving the single market) to leaving with no deal. But there we are - they've been politically better at this for the past 4 years and to be honest I think it's kind of extraordinary that despite the last 3-4 years the remain/pro-European camp haven't managed to extend their base. I feel like everyone involved should be banned from politics because they're clearly bad at it.

It's just that Leave is/was more zeitgeist, the more radical it is the more so. Plus, it is the Leave side which has had consistent decades-long propaganda.

[Sheilbh]

It's just that Leave is/was more zeitgeist, the more radical it is the more so. Plus, it is the Leave side which has had consistent decades-long propaganda.

I think this is very, very kind on the Remain politicians/campaigns/parties.

[Tamas]

It's just that Leave is/was more zeitgeist, the more radical it is the more so. Plus, it is the Leave side which has had consistent decades-long propaganda.

I think this is very, very kind on the Remain politicians/campaigns/parties.

What, should have they lowered themselves to Farage and Johnson's level of lying, or what?

[Valmy]

I think this is very, very kind on the Remain politicians/campaigns/parties.

I guess. But it is not like the defenders of the international order are doing any better in most places these days.

[Sheilbh]

What, should have they lowered themselves to Farage and Johnson's level of lying, or what?

I don't get this - they would have won if they weren't too pure for this world. It's like the Americans moaning about politicians taking things out of context and spinning. That isn't the fault of Farage or Johnson "lying" - it's down to competence. And I feel like if you're not willing to "lower yourself" to win you probably shouldn't be running a national campaign on a really important issue.

The fact is they've been a calamity. They weren't prepared for the campaign despite the EU being an issue in UK politics for 30 years. They weren't nimble enough to respond during the campaign. And, despite all of the evidence in the last 4 years, they still haven't convinced anyone who wasn't with them in June 2016 that they're right. And on top of that they bet the house on getting a second referendum or preventing Brexit, rather than getting a soft Brexit, and now we've ended up with this government. Anger at Farage and Johnson is misplaced - they succeded at what they wanted to achieve, anger should be directed at all the other handsomely rewarded politicians who let them.

[Sheilbh]

I guess. But it is not like the defenders of the international order are doing any better in most places these days.

They're doing fine in Germany, France, Australia, New Zealand, Canada - surprisingly well in Italy at the minute etc.

This isn't some act of God that's irresistably sweeping the plain, that we're reduced to watching helplessly. Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc fucked up. Clinton was a dreadful candidate (and everyone knew it). It seems like when the defenders of the international order are good at politics, they win. The answer isn't that the other side are destined to win or play so unfairly that we've got no chance, it's to demand better.

[Valmy]

I guess. But it is not like the defenders of the international order are doing any better in most places these days.

They're doing fine in Germany, France, Australia, New Zealand, Canada - surprisingly well in Italy at the minute etc.

This isn't some act of God that's irresistably sweeping the plain, that we're reduced to watching helplessly. Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc fucked up. Clinton was a dreadful candidate (and everyone knew it). It seems like when the defenders of the international order are good at politics, they win. The answer isn't that the other side are destined to win or play so unfairly that we've got no chance, it's to demand better.

Corbyn wasn't a defender of that order. Neither of the two biggest parties in the UK were interested in staying in the EU. That is an awfully huge mountain for smaller parties to climb.

And I disagree they are doing fine in France or Germany. They are holding on.

And claiming Clinton was the only reason we had the issues we had is crazy. The Republican Party got hijacked, that had nothing to do with Clinton and it was not like the Republicans were never ever going to win again. The Democrats have their own radical faction. The idea that this is just some bad tactics by a few politicians is...well I just don't understand how you can say that. The bases of the parties have shifted, the grassroots, so they are picking radical people like Corbyn or forcing Cameron into doing something he ordinarily did not want to do.

[garbon]

What, should have they lowered themselves to Farage and Johnson's level of lying, or what?

I don't get this - they would have won if they weren't too pure for this world. It's like the Americans moaning about politicians taking things out of context and spinning. That isn't the fault of Farage or Johnson "lying" - it's down to competence. And I feel like if you're not willing to "lower yourself" to win you probably shouldn't be running a national campaign on a really important issue.

The fact is they've been a calamity. They weren't prepared for the campaign despite the EU being an issue in UK politics for 30 years. They weren't nimble enough to respond during the campaign. And, despite all of the evidence in the last 4 years, they still haven't convinced anyone who wasn't with them in June 2016 that they're right. And on top of that they bet the house on getting a second referendum or preventing Brexit, rather than getting a soft Brexit, and now we've ended up with this government. Anger at Farage and Johnson is misplaced - they succeded at what they wanted to achieve, anger should be directed at all the other handsomely rewarded politicians who let them.

The UK wants to burn, let it.

[Sheilbh]

And I disagree they are doing fine in France or Germany. They are holding on.

Fair - but on that point I feel like we need to stop being surprised by these populist alternatives on the right or left. They've been a stable part of European politics for 30 years now, they are just a part of the system. We won't be rid of them unless something truly transformative happens. And I always think they're a symptom rather than a cause of other issues - their support fluctuates depending on the ability of the "mainstream" to provide alternatives and to deliver.

The populace of the UK want to destroy themselves. I mean they think they are so savvy that the UK will still matter and endure whatever they do, but votes have consequences. The populace made their bed, let them be smothered in it.

I don't really disagree with any of this. I don't see the UK lasting - I think Scottish independence is inevitable now. And I've never really thought Brexit is wildly calamitous, it's sub-par and disappointing and we'll be poorer in the long-run. But I've never really thought we'd be hitting sunlit heights out of the EU or that it'd be some doomsday.

[garbon]

I deleted that as it was too wordy.

Of course, I'm not sure how the breakup of one's country is less than a doomsday but high-ho.

[Sheilbh]

I deleted that as it was too wordy.

Of course, I'm not sure how the breakup of one's country is less than a doomsday but high-ho.

Soz.

It helps that I would 100% be an SNP/Yes voter in Scotland. Even in 2014, before the unpleasantness, I would have been very, very tempted. I remember going up to Scotland about a month before the referendum and thinking it'd be likely I'd vote Yes if I'd stayed in Scotland

[Zanza]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-uk-formally-confirms-to-eu-that-it-wont-extend-transition-period-12005296

Brexit: UK 'formally confirms' to EU that it won't extend transition period


OMFG PROJECT FEAR

Good. This mess needs to end.

[Josquius]

I deleted that as it was too wordy.

Of course, I'm not sure how the breakup of one's country is less than a doomsday but high-ho.

Soz.

It helps that I would 100% be an SNP/Yes voter in Scotland. Even in 2014, before the unpleasantness, I would have been very, very tempted. I remember going up to Scotland about a month before the referendum and thinking it'd be likely I'd vote Yes if I'd stayed in Scotland

I'm torn on that. Had I been in Scotland in 2014 then for sure I would have voted against independence. Scotland was better off as part of the UK and the UK is better off for having Scotland there pulling the right direction (even if the power lies with those pulling us backwards).

Now...Completely don't blame Scottish people for wanting independence. I definitely want to make every effort to make sure I'm offically registered as living there if independence emerges so I can get in on it. But I'm unsure which way I'd vote. Independence to sail off on the lifeboat or remain in the slim hope the lifeboat can help pull the sinking ship to shore.