Star Wars - Impressions, no spoilers, just impressions!

[Habbaku]

I think the failure of Luke's Jedi order and the rise of the Knights of Ren shows that he is definitely not a 6 foot tall Yoda. But to believe he learned nothing in all that off screen time is silly. Obviously, if they portray him as 6 foot Yoda, I will be annoyed as well, but to dismiss Luke as a whiny bitch past the first half of A New Hope is ridiculous.

[The Minsky Moment]

Of course Luke is naive and inexperienced.  He's a teenaged Podunk farmer turned galactic power player overnight - what would one expect?  Plus his enigmatic and somewhat dishonest mentor dies almost immediately, leaving thing alone to figure things out.  He then receives training from Yoda, whose own massive errors led to the Emperor taking over on his watch, and the liquidation of the entire Jedi Order he led.  It's really a miracle Luke succeeds under these circumstances - and IMO its telling that he does ultimately succeed by accessing his own emotions (for his fallen father) and then activating those emotions in Vader.  I.e. he succeeds by appealing to that which his training was supposed to suppress.

I've said this before, but the message of the first two trilogies is that the Jedi order was a fatally flawed project doomed to end badly.  A closed, secretive order (with evidence of eugenic teachings floating around to boot) that teaches its acolytes denial and suppression of one's basic humanity setting itself up as guardians of the galaxy - what could go wrong?  That can't be put on Luke - his teachers and mentors own that failure, and for the most part it seems like they never really learned.   I don't know what direction they are taking this new trilology in but if the idea is Luke finally figured out the Jedi project was fubar, and withdrew to "do no harm" that's a logical move that shows better understanding on his part then any other Jedi character in the series. 

[Berkut]

Luke really showed his incompetence blowing up that Death Star and killing the Emperor. A shame he couldn't be more competent.

Ben told him what to do with the Death Star I, and Vader killed the Emperor, not Luke.

Even to the extent that Luke deserves credit for destroying the first death star, it is just credit for being a good pilot - that doesn't make him a good leader or particularly wise.

I never made the claim that he was particularly wise or a good leader, nor did anyone here as far as I can tell. We have literally no on screen information about his leadership years after the Emperor's death except the failure of his Jedi order.

I made a claim that he was kind of a shitty leader, from what we can tell, and not particularly wise. It seemed like you were arguing against that perspective.

And we certainly do have some onscreen information about his leadership after the Emperoros death.

He was nominally one of the prime leaders in the Rebellion, and since then the Jedi academy he re-started was destroyed, there are Dark force users running amok and blowing up planets, he got outwitted by, apparently, a 14 year old emo goth wanna be named "Matt", and he is hiding away feeling sorry for himself, resulting in the deaths of literally millions of people because he can't be found.

Sounds like a bit of a tool to me.

[Berkut]

Of course Luke is naive and inexperienced.  He's a teenaged Podunk farmer turned galactic power player overnight - what would one expect?  Plus his enigmatic and somewhat dishonest mentor dies almost immediately, leaving thing alone to figure things out.  He then receives training from Yoda, whose own massive errors led to the Emperor taking over on his watch, and the liquidation of the entire Jedi Order he led.  It's really a miracle Luke succeeds under these circumstances - and IMO its telling that he does ultimately succeed by accessing his own emotions (for his fallen father) and then activating those emotions in Vader.  I.e. he succeeds by appealing to that which his training was supposed to suppress.

I've said this before, but the message of the first two trilogies is that the Jedi order was a fatally flawed project doomed to end badly.  A closed, secretive order (with evidence of eugenic teachings floating around to boot) that teaches its acolytes denial and suppression of one's basic humanity setting itself up as guardians of the galaxy - would could go wrong?  That can't be put on Luke - his teachers and mentors own that failure, and for the most part it seems like they never really learned.   I don't know what direction they are taking this new trilology in but if the idea is Luke finally figured out the Jedi project was fubar, and withdrew to "do no harm" that's a logical move that shows better understanding on his part then any other Jedi character in the series. 

*That* would be awesomely cool if they wrote it just like that, and I would totally agree then that Luke is pretty awesome.

But I am skeptical that the entire arc that was envisioned is that the Jedi are a complete disaster. I agree that that is the rational way to look at the story as a whole, but I suspect that rational people see it like that because the writing overall has been so inconsistent, not because that was ever the intent.

I love the idea though, and think it would make the story a lot more mature and nuanced.

I am just skeptical that they were ever going for any nuance when it came to the Jedi as the Good Guys.

[The Minsky Moment]

But I am skeptical that the entire arc that was envisioned is that the Jedi are a complete disaster.

That's the beauty of new ownership, and new writers.  You're right it isn't probably what Lucas was envisioning, but it's what he put on the screen, and if the new writers have the courage of their conviction and the backing of the suits, they can take it in whatever direction they want.

[Habbaku]

I am really hopeful that the next film will lead things that way--to unlocking the Force in a larger mass instead of having it contained to a very specific group of warrior monks that have failed time and again because of how foolishly rigid their teachings are.

Everyone a Space Wizard! Even Unkarr Plutt. He gets a half portion.

[Valmy]

Uh, Vader killed the Emperor after he got sick of watching Palpatine wail on Luke.  The Death Star got blown up by Lando and Wedge after Han blew up the shield generator on Endor.  Luke's contribution literally boiled down to showing Vader that he should be a disgruntled employee after all.

Han blew up the shield generator? He walked right into a trap and got captured. Anyway Luke used his jedi mojo to see that Vader could be turned and he gave himself to the Empire to execute that plan so it was pretty gutsy. But, granted, just like with Han the Ewoks were the real heroes for using their sticks and stones to get the Death Star destroyed. Ah Return of the Jedi.

[The Minsky Moment]

What would be even better is pushing the message already present in Force Awakens - that the true power in the universe is human agency, not the Force.  Rey doesn't save the galaxy.  Finn does.  It's Finn who rescues Poe, who prompts Rey to take the BB droid offworld, who convinces the Rebellion to send him and Solo to take out the key facility on the Bad Guy base.  Without him, the good guys lose.  And the Force has nothing to do with it.  It's all moral choices by Finn - the choice to reject all his conditioning because of the sense that what he is doing is wrong, and the choice to stop running and risk his own life to save Rey.  The Force in this scenario is just distracting razz-ma-tazz: Snoke and Ren and in his own way Luke are playing their inside baseball Jedi game about control over the rogue Force user, but its Finn's action that end up meaning the difference between untold billions dying in planetary holocausts, and not dying.

[Habbaku]

What would be even better is pushing the message already present in Force Awakens - that the true power in the universe is human agency, not the Force.  Rey doesn't save the galaxy.  Finn does.  It's Finn who rescues Poe, who prompts Rey to take the BB droid offworld, who convinces the Rebellion to send him and Solo to take out the key facility on the Bad Guy base.  Without him, the good guys lose.  And the Force has nothing to do with it.  It's all moral choices by Finn - the choice to reject all his conditioning because of the sense that what he is doing is wrong, and the choice to stop running and risk his own life to save Rey.  The Force in this scenario is just distracting razz-ma-tazz: Snoke and Ren and in his own way Luke are playing their inside baseball Jedi game about control over the rogue Force user, but its Finn's action that end up meaning the difference between untold billions dying in planetary holocausts, and not dying.

[Grey Fox]

I am really hopeful that the next film will lead things that way--to unlocking the Force in a larger mass instead of having it contained to a very specific group of warrior monks that have failed time and again because of how foolishly rigid their teachings are.

Everyone a Space Wizard! Even Unkarr Plutt. He gets a half portion.

Disney trilogy #2 that would be awesome.

[viper37]

One thing that bugs me.

I respect your opinion.  But isn't a little too early to judge the movie by what we know of it, namely a 30 second sequence of a teaser trailer?

[Habbaku]

One thing that bugs me.

I respect your opinion.  But isn't a little too early to judge the movie by what we know of it, namely a 30 second sequence of a teaser trailer?

Aye, I mentioned just this in my earlier parenthetical.

[viper37]

Luke really showed his incompetence blowing up that Death Star and killing the Emperor. A shame he couldn't be more competent.

Uh, Vader killed the Emperor after he got sick of watching Palpatine wail on Luke.  The Death Star got blown up by Lando and Wedge after Han blew up the shield generator on Endor.  Luke's contribution literally boiled down to showing Vader that he should be a disgruntled employee after all.

All of that happened because Luke was there to distract the Emperor.  Without it, he would have kept using his battle meditation to thwart the effort of the Rebel Alliance.

[Berkut]

One thing that bugs me.

I respect your opinion.  But isn't a little too early to judge the movie by what we know of it, namely a 30 second sequence of a teaser trailer?

Sorry, that wasn't a signal that I was drawing any conclusions or judgements about the movie.

Just musing about my perceived direction the story arc seems to be leading.

[Ed Anger]

Nerds