Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[CountDeMoney]

We do need to support abuse victims.  But not everyone who says they are an abuse victim really is one.

And feeling compelled to say that out loud accomplishes what useful and constructive purpose, exactly? Other than being a contrarian asshole, that is?

Fucking douchebag.

This is a discussion board.  Discussing any particular topic here doesn't serve any useful and constructive purpose beyond furthering the discussion.

Stupid fuckhead.

I'm not talking about this stupid fucking board, you asschimp;  I talking about the acknowledgment of the greater discussion of abuse.  YES WE KNOW THERE EXISTS THE POSSIBILITY THAT NOT EVERY ABUSE VICTIM IS REALLY A VICTIM THANK YOU SHELDON but what does that do to actually advance the discussion, other than douchebagging shit up with arguments of equivalency?

You know, you're such a fan of fallacies, maybe you should've skipped lawl school and gone into medicine, so you could perform late-term abortions on logic.

[Barrister]

We do need to support abuse victims.  But not everyone who says they are an abuse victim really is one.

And feeling compelled to say that out loud accomplishes what useful and constructive purpose, exactly? Other than being a contrarian asshole, that is?

Fucking douchebag.

This is a discussion board.  Discussing any particular topic here doesn't serve any useful and constructive purpose beyond furthering the discussion.

Stupid fuckhead.

I'm not talking about this stupid fucking board, you asschimp;  I talking about the acknowledgment of the greater discussion of abuse.  YES WE KNOW THERE EXISTS THE POSSIBILITY THAT NOT EVERY ABUSE VICTIM IS REALLY A VICTIM THANK YOU SHELDON but what does that do to actually advance the discussion, other than douchebagging shit up with arguments of equivalency?

You know, you're such a fan of fallacies, maybe you should've skipped lawl school and gone into medicine, so you could perform late-term abortions on logic.

You seem upset Seedy.  You should try drinking a nice cup of chamomile tea.  It might help relax you.

[Grey Fox]

late-term abortions on logic.

That's funny.

[derspiess]

Seedy needs to take up smoking again. 

[CountDeMoney]

despiess with his fucking attempted murder bullshit.



I could go for a Laramie right about now, though.  Ah, that smooth Carolina smoke.

[Habbaku]

[DGuller]

The really tragic thing about rape accusations is that it forces people to pick sides without having the facts to analyze.  The three options are:

1)  You believe the accuser.  By doing that you are announcing that you consider the accused capable of raping someone.
2)  You don't believe the accuser.  By doing that you are announcing that you consider the accuser capable of slandering someone in the most awful way possible.
3)  You express ambivalence in some way or just not say anything.  By doing that you are accomplishing both of the above things.

There is no fourth option.  Any person that knows both parties is forced to make public what they believe about the character of the two parties, with the possibility of being wrong about it.

I don't know what can be done to solve this tragic dilemma.  You can't just say "always believe someone when they say they've been raped".  Maybe that's the lesser evil at this point in time, when it seems like the possibility of being disbelieved is so high that few women make false accusations.  However, when it becomes the norm to automatically believe rape accusations, then false accusations are going to become way more common.

[grumbler]

The really tragic thing about rape accusations is that it forces people to pick sides without having the facts to analyze.  The three options are:

1)  You believe the accuser.  By doing that you are announcing that you consider the accused capable of raping someone.
2)  You don't believe the accuser.  By doing that you are announcing that you consider the accuser capable of slandering someone in the most awful way possible.
3)  You express ambivalence in some way or just not say anything.  By doing that you are accomplishing both of the above things.

There is no fourth option.  Any person that knows both parties is forced to make public what they believe about the character of the two parties, with the possibility of being wrong about it.

I don't know what can be done to solve this tragic dilemma.  You can't just say "always believe someone when they say they've been raped".  Maybe that's the lesser evil at this point in time, when it seems like the possibility of being disbelieved is so high that few women make false accusations.  However, when it becomes the norm to automatically believe rape accusations, then false accusations are going to become way more common.

The taking sides issue is true of all accusations ever.  What makes rape more difficult than most is that the act (having sex) is criminal or not based entirely on the mindset of the accused, and there often isn't evidence either way.  It is entirely possible for the accuser to sincerely believe themselves a victim of rape, and the accused sincerely believe themselves innocent of rape.  I'd say this latter state is probably pretty rare, but it's at least possible in a lot of cases.

[Barrister]

The taking sides issue is true of all accusations ever.  What makes rape more difficult than most is that the act (having sex) is criminal or not based entirely on the mindset of the accused, and there often isn't evidence either way.  It is entirely possible for the accuser to sincerely believe themselves a victim of rape, and the accused sincerely believe themselves innocent of rape.  I'd say this latter state is probably pretty rare, but it's at least possible in a lot of cases.

In my experience many rapists don't think that they're doing anything wrong.  They just don't see the lack of consent by the woman to be an issue.

Usually rape cases don't turn on the mindset of the Accused.  It turns on the mindset of the victim - did they consent to sex or not.

[DGuller]

McKayla Maroney, of the not impressed fame, went public with accusations of being raped by team doctor for seven years.

Reading the Russian blogosphere about this story yet again reinforces my belief that Russian people exist just to remind people what a real life evil is.  About 95% of the comments are mocking of her and accusing her of wanting to cash in now that her career is done.  Even though most stories being commented on also state that the doctor she accuses of rape has already been accused by 100+ other people, and has already plead guilty to possessing tens of thousands of child porn images.

It kind of makes you think when someone famous with nothing to lose keeps quiet about such things until a Twitter campaign comes around and gives her courage.  The accused has already been in jail for a year and thoroughly disgraced, so really the only factor is the fear of exposing herself to public ridicule.

[grumbler]

In my experience many rapists don't think that they're doing anything wrong.  They just don't see the lack of consent by the woman to be an issue.

Usually rape cases don't turn on the mindset of the Accused.  It turns on the mindset of the victim - did they consent to sex or not.

Interesting.  In Canada guilt doesn't require mens rea?  Just the word of the accuser (which I notice you have changed to "victim" here in advance of any resolution)?  Seems a system ripe for abuse.

[Barrister]

In my experience many rapists don't think that they're doing anything wrong.  They just don't see the lack of consent by the woman to be an issue.

Usually rape cases don't turn on the mindset of the Accused.  It turns on the mindset of the victim - did they consent to sex or not.

Interesting.  In Canada guilt doesn't require mens rea?  Just the word of the accuser (which I notice you have changed to "victim" here in advance of any resolution)?  Seems a system ripe for abuse.

That's your take-away?  That Canada has done away with the mens rea concept that underpins the entire common law? How very odd.

Sexual assault is a general intent offence.  The only intent required is that you intended to have sexual contact with someone, and that person did not consent.  So yes, if you slip and by accident your penis slips inside a woman then you're not guilty.  But you don't have to know you're committing a crime in order to have mens rea.

So, many sex assault trials turn on the victim's evidence.  If defence can raise a reasonable doubt that they did in fact consent, then the Accused is not guilty.

Now there is a defence of "honest but mistaken belief in consent".  Once the Crown has proven that the victim did not consent, defence can assert that the Accused thought she had consented.  There the Accused's mindset does come into question.  The Accused has to testify obviously, which is why many/most sex assault trials do not turn on this defence.  And the Accused not has to believe that the victim consented, but such belief has to be reasonable (i.e. if the victim repeatedly says no, stop, a belief in consent isn't going to be reasonable).

[alfred russel]

if you slip and by accident your penis slips inside a woman then you're not guilty

I think back to Martim posting about how Canadian women are the most rapeable women in the world. It is beginning to make sense now...

[garbon]

McKayla Maroney, of the not impressed fame, went public with accusations of being raped by team doctor for seven years.

Reading the Russian blogosphere about this story yet again reinforces my belief that Russian people exist just to remind people what a real life evil is.  About 95% of the comments are mocking of her and accusing her of wanting to cash in now that her career is done.  Even though most stories being commented on also state that the doctor she accuses of rape has already been accused by 100+ other people, and has already plead guilty to possessing tens of thousands of child porn images.

It kind of makes you think when someone famous with nothing to lose keeps quiet about such things until a Twitter campaign comes around and gives her courage.  The accused has already been in jail for a year and thoroughly disgraced, so really the only factor is the fear of exposing herself to public ridicule.

I don't understand what you are saying. 1) Things started taking off because of Weinstein and the twitter campaign is just aspect of that.

2) I can totally see not wanting to say anything until there's a huge groundswell. Individually, you are going to take a lot of abuse and when there is an opportunity for less abuse when you finally speak your truth, sounds like a good time.  I mean it has to be awful to sit on that kind of secret knowing that if you speak up, you are going to be the one attacked.

[DGuller]

McKayla Maroney, of the not impressed fame, went public with accusations of being raped by team doctor for seven years.

Reading the Russian blogosphere about this story yet again reinforces my belief that Russian people exist just to remind people what a real life evil is.  About 95% of the comments are mocking of her and accusing her of wanting to cash in now that her career is done.  Even though most stories being commented on also state that the doctor she accuses of rape has already been accused by 100+ other people, and has already plead guilty to possessing tens of thousands of child porn images.

It kind of makes you think when someone famous with nothing to lose keeps quiet about such things until a Twitter campaign comes around and gives her courage.  The accused has already been in jail for a year and thoroughly disgraced, so really the only factor is the fear of exposing herself to public ridicule.

I don't understand what you are saying. 1) Things started taking off because of Weinstein and the twitter campaign is just aspect of that.

2) I can totally see not wanting to say anything until there's a huge groundswell. Individually, you are going to take a lot of abuse and when there is an opportunity for less abuse when you finally speak your truth, sounds like a good time.  I mean it has to be awful to sit on that kind of secret knowing that if you speak up, you are going to be the one attacked.

Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying, but I don't understand why that is.