Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Valmy]

to judge what is harmful to Native Americans - whose treatment in the US ranges on a scale from being the targets of outright genocide to disinterested neglect at best. Turning (or rather maintaining) Native American symbols as a jokes or something not worthy of respect, makes it that much harder for them to be taken seriously when they struggle for civil rights and redress of their grievances.

Wait we are currently genociding Native Americans? I was never particularly fond of that word being used in this particular instance since our government intentionally avoided making that policy, which is probably the only positive thing I can think of to say about our Native American policy.

Native Americans are such a crazy diverse group  that it is very difficult to get a gauge on what they think.

For example I really want the my favorite team to change its name from the Redskins and dump all the Native American stuff. The actual Native Americans themselves, when polled, say they are cool with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

But, on the other hand, presumably the ones that aren't cool with it are REALLY not cool with it because they raise a pretty big stink.

And it gets more complicated because Native Americans were respected in a weird way, like how the Romans respected the Huns or the Chinese respected their friendly neighborhood Mongols, so even when their words or symbols or images were appropriated they were not (always) used as a joke or as something not worthy of respect. Numerous states, cities, rivers, emblems, flags, and our currency (before the Presidents took it over) all have or had Native names or images associated with them. Were those bad things to do or not? Should Illinois not have been named Illinois?

I don't know.

[Valmy]

I expect you'll convince Valmy where Oex and failed

What are you trying to convince me of?

[Malthus]

I expect you'll convince Valmy where Oex and failed

What are you trying to convince me of?

That you are a bad, bad man. Be guilty.

[Valmy]

But generally I don't consider Europeans having Kitsch cowboy shit as the same thing as them parading around burning the American Flag. In the latter case they are trying to offend me to send a message.

It's true that one political message is much more overt. But you can also stand confident that there are enough variations in the representations of the Americans that the kitsch cowboy is only one part of it. And you can also stand confident that, even if the stereotype of American = Violent Cowboy does seep into other arenas, including, I am sure, international relations, existing in the minds of foreign diplomats and influencing they treat ambassadors and trade negotiations, the USA has enough resources to make itself taken seriously beyond the stereotype.

Ok let's not mix things here. Just because I think a French chef can cook traditional vietnamese dishes does not mean I think we should embrace racist and national stereotypes.

[Jacob]

I expect you'll convince Valmy where Oex and failed

What are you trying to convince me of?

That people who take issue with Native American garb as hallowe'en costumes have a point.

[The Brain]

But generally I don't consider Europeans having Kitsch cowboy shit as the same thing as them parading around burning the American Flag. In the latter case they are trying to offend me to send a message.

It's true that one political message is much more overt. But you can also stand confident that there are enough variations in the representations of the Americans that the kitsch cowboy is only one part of it. And you can also stand confident that, even if the stereotype of American = Violent Cowboy does seep into other arenas, including, I am sure, international relations, existing in the minds of foreign diplomats and influencing they treat ambassadors and trade negotiations, the USA has enough resources to make itself taken seriously beyond the stereotype.

Ok let's not mix things here. Just because I think a French chef can cook traditional vietnamese dishes does not mean I think we should embrace racist and national stereotypes.

That's not how this works.

[derspiess]

That gets back to Toni's native art though.  Sure, it's okay for Bavarians to sell bavarian dressed and beer festivals.

But do they get upset seeing people in north america selling lederhousen and celebrating Octoberfest?

Funnily enough, non-Bavarian Krauts sometimes do.

[Valmy]

That gets back to Toni's native art though.  Sure, it's okay for Bavarians to sell bavarian dressed and beer festivals.

But do they get upset seeing people in north america selling lederhousen and celebrating Octoberfest?

Funnily enough, non-Bavarian Krauts sometimes do.

Yeah they get annoyed it is not an authentic representation of modern Germany. As if that would be any fun.

[Grinning_Colossus]

My problem with the idea of cultural appropriation is that everything that we can agree is bad about it can just as easily be described as stereotyping or insulting a culture. The term 'appropriation,' however, frames benign cultural diffusion and exchange as negative, and seems to emerge from the strange assumption that cultures are discrete, self-contained entities.

In my (very limited) experience, the whole "cultural appropriation" brouhaha is an uniquely American thing, with maybe only a few British forays into it. It's virtually unheard of over here.

One can only imagine how much fun European nationalists will have with it once they do hear about it.

[Valmy]

That people who take issue with Native American garb as hallowe'en costumes have a point.

My issue was never with the point. And frankly the annual outrage over Halloween costumes is not something that concerns me that much. But Cultural Appropriation as a social ill is worrisome to me because of its combination of vagueness and militancy. Which, as you well know, is a combination I find particularly destructive.

[garbon]

My problem with the idea of cultural appropriation is that everything that we can agree is bad about it can just as easily be described as stereotyping or insulting a culture. The term 'appropriation,' however, frames benign cultural diffusion and exchange as negative, and seems to emerge from the strange assumption that cultures are discrete, self-contained entities.

So your issue is that you parse it incorrectly?

[Barrister]

In my (very limited) experience, the whole "cultural appropriation" brouhaha is an uniquely American thing, with maybe only a few British forays into it. It's virtually unheard of over here.

One can only imagine how much fun European nationalists will have with it once they do hear about it.

But they do have the same concept in europe.  Just listen for what happens when I talk about Canadian-made champagne or parmigiano-reggiano.

[garbon]

That people who take issue with Native American garb as hallowe'en costumes have a point.

My issue was never with the point. And frankly the annual outrage over Halloween costumes is not something that concerns me that much. But Cultural Appropriation as a social ill is worrisome to me because of its combination of vagueness and militancy. Which, as you well know, is a combination I find particularly destructive.

I don't really find it to be that vague. Sure can some people get militant and apply it incorrectly? Sure but then I think that happens with most concepts.

[Malthus]

My problem with the idea of cultural appropriation is that everything that we can agree is bad about it can just as easily be described as stereotyping or insulting a culture. The term 'appropriation,' however, frames benign cultural diffusion and exchange as negative, and seems to emerge from the strange assumption that cultures are discrete, self-contained entities.

In my (very limited) experience, the whole "cultural appropriation" brouhaha is an uniquely American thing, with maybe only a few British forays into it. It's virtually unheard of over here.

One can only imagine how much fun European nationalists will have with it once they do hear about it.

Yup.

The notion that cultural diffusion is basically a bad thing strikes me as a very bad idea.

[HVC]

In my (very limited) experience, the whole "cultural appropriation" brouhaha is an uniquely American thing, with maybe only a few British forays into it. It's virtually unheard of over here.

One can only imagine how much fun European nationalists will have with it once they do hear about it.

But they do have the same concept in europe.  Just listen for what happens when I talk about Canadian-made champagne or parmigiano-reggiano.

That's a money thing though.